S.O.S.

[Dracalous]

So I've found myself in need of a new car. The 1990 Cavalier I was driving blew the head. Instead of re-rebuilding it, my dad is electing to scrap it and co-sign with me on a newer car. I have never done this before. If anyone in the Central Washington area is selling a reliable car or if anyone has tips for buying a car, please post.

[Aethian]

Try to not get a car loan at all, watch Craigslist and garage sales, and find out all you can about the car your looking at.

BTW walk away if you feel your being played.

[Dracalous]

If I'm buying a car, not getting a loan is not an option for me if I want something useful.

[Seshat]

1. Before signing anything (other than perhaps a small holding deposit), get a mechanical check by a reliable mechanic. Ideally either a well-known car club (I think AAA is 'the' default car club in the States) or a mechanic well-known to your family.
The deposit is probably not going to be refundable if you refuse to buy the car, but that's the price to you of not buying a lemon. And it's much, much better to lose twenty dollars plus the service fee the mechanic charges than to buy a useless car.

2. Pay your mechanic fairly, and also buy him a beer.

3. Your motor vehicle registration department - government department - is going to have some way of doing title checks, and lien checks. USE IT.
If your department - like mine - offers a certification that you've done the check, make use of that too. In Aussieland, that government department certificate means that the car is MINE (or mine plus my choice of lender's): basically, I've done what any reasonable layman could be expected to do, to verify that the seller had the right to sell the vehicle.
Need I mention that any car which fails to pass the title and lien check is NOT to go onto your short list?


Making your short list

First, choose a type of vehicle that suits your needs. I'm not talking about make, model or year yet: I'm talking about do you need a little car for urban travel? Do you plan to take a large family on long road trips? Do you need space to pack a drum kit - or a great dane? Do you need something with low maintenance and mileage costs?
Okay. Now you know that your needs are fully met by a two-door hatchback, or a roomy off-roader, or whatever.

Go to websites that collate car sales. Categorise by 'two door' or 'off roader' or whatever categories there are that match your wishlist. Make a list of all the makes, models and years that are on offer within your budget. Don't fall in love with any particular make or model yet, and DEFINITELY not with any specific car!

Go to the police website for your area, and the insurance websites, and the car club websites.

At the police and insurance websites, you're looking to see if there's a public report of what makes, models and years are frequently stolen. Put a mark against the top five of those on your list - that's a big 'probably not' for those makes, models and years; but there might yet be overriding reasons to buy one of those anyway.

At the car club website, there may well be an average cost of ownership report for your cars, and possibly a 'secondhand car review'. Both of these are useful.

Go back to the insurance websites. Get estimates for the yearly insurance cost for each of your shortlisted cars.

If you can't find those reports on those websites, look around elsewhere. It's all valuable information.

Now sort your cars into an order of preference based on what you know so far.


Now go back to your mechanic. Ask to buy a quarter hour or a half hour of his time and expertise - and yes, offer to make an appointment or to come back sometime when he expects to be less busy.

Show him your list, and ask his opinion on the maintenance of these cars. Your local mechanic will know that .. oh, a car which gets good reports in Arizona has a serious rust problem in Florida. Or a car which is well rustproofed, chokes and dies on Arizona dust. Or whatever other problems there are.

He also may well know of someone who's selling a car that's in your preferred type of vehicle and budget, and which he personally knows is sound because HE, personally, has worked on it. If so, you've lucked out. Grab it.


Okay. You and your mechanic have narrowed down the short list of makes and models and years.

NOW you can go back to individual cars. Hit the car sales sites, contact friends, etc etc. Find a list of individual cars.

Go shopping on a sunny day.

Stand so you can look down the length of the car. There'll be a line of sunlight where the car body is just about to curve under. Make sure it's smooth - if it's buckled, the car has been in at least one accident. Check both sides.
Make sure all doors open and close properly, and are well aligned with the door frames. Including hood/bonnet and boot/trunk. Again, if not, it's probably been in at least one accident. Or the hinges or catches are poorly lubricated and/or very dirty.
If the car is supposed to be made of metal, a fridge magnet will help you determine if there are large patches of putty where dents have been smoothed over with putty and repainted.
Check both front and rear bumpers the same way you checked the sides, also check hood and boot (bonnet and trunk), and the roof.

Study around every pane of glass, looking for rust or signs of leaks. Interior as well as exterior.
Study the doorsills and frames as well, and get onto your knees and check the wheel wells.
While you're there, study the wheel wear. If the wheels are more worn on one side than the other, that can be an alignment issue or (in the front wheels) a steering issue. If the wheels are more worn in the centre than the sides, or vice versa, they've been consistently over- or under-inflated. Of those, the most serious is the potential steering issue; but all are signs that the car may not have been getting proper care.
Oh, and if they're trying to sell you a car with bald tires; give serious consideration to walking away right then and there. That's just insulting. Alternatively, you could make a mental note of it as a way to bargain the price down significantly.

Neither rust nor accidents is a reason to completely cross a car off your short list; but they are things to make a note of and perhaps discuss with your friendly mechanic. (Please keep your mechanic friendly during this!)


If the car hasn't completely disgusted you by this stage, open the glovebox and get out the owner's manual. (What's that? It's not there? Ask for it. If they don't have it, give serious consideration to walking away.)

Pop the bonnet. Look around the edges of the bonnet for more signs of rust. Check that the engine is cold. If the battery is the type that needs maintenance, open each section and look for the catseye that indicates that it's topped up. Check the oil dipstick, ensure that the oil is a nice brown colour and not black, and is between 'empty' and 'full'. Check the transmission fluid, if applicable. Check the washer fluid, even - someone who keeps their windscreen washer fluid topped up and with a splash of detergent is probably worth buying from! Check all the other fluids except the radiator: I'm about to tell you a special thing to look for there.
Make certain you check the brake fluid. Never, ever, test drive a car with too little brake fluid, or too much. And ensure the brake fluid container under the bonnet is properly sealed.

ENSURE THE ENGINE IS COLD. (Never, ever, open a hot radiator).
Open the radiator. LOOK FOR BUBBLES. If there's bubbles in the radiator water, there's trouble in the engine. I forget, now, exactly what trouble it is - I think it means a broken gasket, and potential loss of pressure in the actual engine proper. One of our car enthusiasts is sure to inform me.
Also, look for the characteristic sheen of oil in the radiator water. That means even worse trouble.
The car may be your dream car in every other way, but unless you want to rebuild the engine, give this one up. Or at -least- consult with your mechanic.

Check inside the boot (trunk). Look for rust. Look at the spare wheel. Using your own tire gauge (you do own one, right?) measure the pressure of the spare, also measure the tread. It's okay for a spare to be close to bald: when we replace tires, my own family's mechanic compares the spare and whichever two tires he's just taken off the car, and puts the best of the three in as the spare. However, the spare should not be actually bald, and the pressure should be reasonably close to ideal.
Take the spare tire out, and check for rust underneath it. That's a common place for hidden rust. Also check for a pooling of water.
Check to see if the jack, the jack handle, and the tire iron are present and in working condition.
Check that the boot light works.

If you're absolutely and utterly lucky, there's a mini toolkit with the jack and tire iron, jumper leads, spare fuses and bulbs, and an assortment of other useful things, all organised in some neat toolkit organiser out of the way of the main luggage. Even a squeegee, perhaps an ice scraper, and small bottles of washer fluid, water, oil ....
.... but frankly, if I was selling a car, the only parts of that toolkit that would be staying with the car are the tire jack set, and the fuses and bulbs specific to the car.
That said; it's wise to build up such a kit, if you happen to be (a) handy, or (b) willing to learn. Even if you're not handy, collect the fuses and bulbs specific to your car - that way, whoever you're getting to fix it has the parts available.


Now you can look inside. Are all seatbelts present and (reasonably) clean? Do any look worn or ratty? (Never sit in a seat with a ratty seatbelt.) A bad seatbelt is not a black mark on a car; they're not that expensive to replace. But that's another thing to haggle the price down with.
Do all the seats lock into place firmly? Are all the driving instruments clear to read?
All the rest is just cosmetic or comfort stuff: how important that is to you is up to you. I'm just trying to provide you with the safety info.


You or your car-shopping partner should stand behind the car when it's started. Watch the exhaust when it first starts. White is fine - that's water. Brown means the car is (probably) burning oil. Which means a gasket failure somewhere, and hey, it's engine rebuilding time again.

Listen to the sound of the idling engine. Is it hiccuping, or does it purr? Hiccuping means the timing is off: that's fixable, but is yet another thing to pay for, and yet another indication that the car isn't beautifully maintained.
If you know what an idling engine should sound like, you can also listen for if it's idling fast or slow; which indicates a too-rich or too-poor mix of fuel. At least in pre-electronic engines: I admit that I'm old-fashioned and know engines from the days of timing chains and distributor caps.

Finally, it's time to test drive the car.
Expect your seller to sit in the car with you; that's a reasonable precaution to prevent theft.

Take the car someplace quiet. At a time when you have a stretch of straight road, with no (or few) side streets, hold your hands just barely off the wheel and see if the car travels straight. It probably won't, because most roads have a camber to let the rain run off: but if it travels mostly straight with a tendancy to follow the camber, that's fine. If it travels against the camber, you have a steering problem or a bad wheel problem of some sort. Ditto with going REALLY strongly into the camber.

Double-check that it's still all quiet and safe. Warn your seller and your car-shopping partner, then do an emergency stop. In these days of airbags, you don't want to do a full-on 'ohmygod don't hit the toddler' emergency stop, but stop hard enough to make sure the brakes WILL stop the car. They shouldn't judder, or slide, or pull to one side. Just a nice, neat stop within a reasonable distance. (Lemme see if I can pull up a 'reasonable distance' guide for car stopping.)

Stopping distances, Qld Gov this one only covers high speeds, but it gives some indication.

The ACT police provide a slightly lower speed (and a hypothetical child running out into the road).

If you like, you can put the car through a few more slow-area paces; such as a u-turn, a 3-point turn, parking it and taking off again.

If there's a safe and convenient place to try it at high speeds, do that too. But don't do an emergency brake on an occupied freeway or highway unless there's an actual need to! One, you'll probably cause the air bags to go off, and two, you'll startle the hell out of the other drivers.


Once you have a car which has passed all of those tests, AND you like it ... put a holding deposit on it (NOT an 'I am definitely going to buy it' but 'I am going to buy it if my mechanic and I both like it'), and have your mechanic go over it. If your mechanic approves ... you have a new (secondhand) car.


Good luck.

[wolfie]

Regarding the oil, if the car is a diesel, disregard the "black oil is bad" advice - the oil will be black less than 100 miles after an oil change.

Jack the car up using all 4 jack points. Some cars have a tendency for the jack points to rust out from the inside - look good from the outside, but won't support the car's weight.

Does it have a timing belt (as opposed to chain or gear drive for the cam)? If so, there should be a sticker on the timing cover (at the "front" - accessory drive end of the engine, usually on the right for transverse mount) giving the date and mileage of the last change. If it's not there, assume it's overdue. The usual replacement interval is around 4 years or 60,000 miles/100,000 km, whichever comes first. If you don't follow the recommended replacement interval, it's good for roughly 1/10 of a second less than the life of the engine.

Is the washer fluid low? If it's a car that's already reached the "want to get my mechanic to check it out" stage, fill the reservoir (fluid is cheap). Watch for a puddle to form underneath the car - might be a cracked reservoir (around $100 at the dealer for reservoir only/$30 at a salvage yard for reservoir/pump pair, plus labour in both cases), or it might be the grommet where the pump mounts has died of old age ($5 part, plus labour). Is it a hatch/station wagon/minivan/SUV with rear wiper/washer? Is the washer jet mounted at the pivot end of the wiper arm? Watch the spray pattern when the wiper and washer are both running. On a VW, if the spray sweeps back and forth with the wiper, it means the tube to the jet has seized and broken (not sold separately, only available as part of a rear wiper motor assembly). Rear washer not spraying? On some vehicles, there are 2 pumps drawing from a single reservoir under the hood. On others, there's a second reservoir in the back (1996 through 2000 Elantra wagons, it's behind a panel on the right side of the cargo area).

Is it a wagon/minivan/SUV that uses a "roller blind" type cargo cover? Make sure it's there - for my car, a replacement is over $500.

Is the spare stored underneath? Check to see if it can be lowered/raised - this mechanism sits for YEARS without being used, and has a high potential to get rusted solid (and carmakers are too cheap to use stainless).

Do you want a real transmission, or a "slushbox"? Do you need a real spare tire, or is a "donut" good enough? Do you even care if it comes with a can of "fix-a-flat" instead of a spare?

What sort of "mission profile" are you looking for? I might be able to suggest a few vehicles.

[Android Kaeli]

The best advice I can give you: DON'T BUY A USED CAR. Period.

Seriously, don't. You are just going to be buying someone else's problems and will eventually have to get ANOTHER car in a year or two if you do. I bought a used car because I needed one, it was the worst mistake I EVER made and will NEVER get another one again. I did eventually get a new car and am a year or so away from paying it off in full.

Yes I have payments. Yes it's a bit expensive. But the best part? I don't have to worry about the damn thing stalling on me or leaving me stranded, at least for another ten years or so.

If you MUST get a used car, make sure that you get the thing checked out BEFORE you buy AND have it checked by someone you trust.

[protege]

For the most part, the days of troublesome used cars are pretty much gone. Thanks to services like Carfax, and most dealers turning away the junk. There are still some lemons out there.

Seshat has you pretty well covered. I too would get a mechanic for a second opinion. You never know what could be hiding under the surface. Fresh paint (or replacement panels) can hide accident damage or rust. Depending on the issue, a little body putty under the paint isn't always a bad thing. Sometimes, no matter how hard the body shop tries, there are always imperfections. Still, if the car runs well, and the damage is minor, you could score a bargain. Plus, if you're willing to do a little work, you can actually save quite a bit.

For example, I picked up a rather nice '91 Toyota Tercel some years ago. It had some minor cosmetic damage--a heavy scratch on the roof, small dent in the fender--as well as a leaking trunk. The previous owner had apparently backed the car into a pole, and bent the panel just above the bumper. When it rained, the trunk got wet. Otherwise, the car was like new--no rust underneath, low mileage, mint interior, etc. I was able to get the dealer to knock off a couple grand because of the leaky trunk, the lack of A/C (don't even get me started on what type of idiot would get a dark vinyl interior and *no* A/C!), and no radio.

Fixing the trunk was pretty easy. A $20 tube of rubber glue, and a tailgate seal "borrowed" from my then-dead MG, soon had it sorted. It didn't leak again the 6 years I had that car. Took 5 minutes, and I saved about two grand. Well worth it, IMHO.

That's not to say that I've had some real stinkers. Such as the '87 Tempo that came from an auction. Unless you *really* like taking risks, I'd avoid the auctions. You're not allowed to test drive the vehicles, nor do you get a lot of time to check them out. If you decide to bid and win, you're stuck with it. Many of the vehicles that arrive at auctions are either fleet cars, or cars that the dealers have rejected. They may look nice, but again, fresh paint can be deceiving. We had a lot of problems with that damn car--overheating issues, transmission problems...and constant brake problems.

What I'd start with, is a rough idea of what you want. That is, do you want a small sedan, midsize car, or a "land yacht?" What about an SUV or van? When I bought my last car, I looked at the Toyota Corolla, the Honda Civic, Nissan Sentra, Mazda 3, and Subaru Impreza. (I didn't bother looking at domestics, since my local dealers are jagoffs.) I wanted something with four doors, reliable, economic to run, and cheap to insure.

I did quite a bit of reading on all of those cars--magazines, web reviews--as well as test driving them. Before ponying up the cash, I wanted to be well-informed as to what I'd be paying for. Cars had changed a bit in the 10 years since I'd bought one!

[Ophbalance]

The best advice I can give you: DON'T BUY A USED CAR. Period.

One car does not a good statistic make. From my experience I have had:

* 87 Dodge Caravan. Purchased new by my parents, given to me. Like all Caravans of that era it had issues as it aged. Ours ended up with some electrical gremlins. Once sold, the transmission blew out, like pretty much every other caravan of that age. Don't recall the mileage but it was over 100k.

* 87 Civic. Purchased used from an all city driver. I beat the hell out of this thing. What killed it was my lack of reading the manual on a car with a timing belt. Most problems were age related (clutch, timing belt, popped the passenger side transaxle on a downshift). Junked at 127k with a blown engine.

* 88 LeBaron. Purchased used. Yet another wonderful Chrysler product. Honestly, the mechanic we took this thing to was half the problem. The other was just a crap engine with water ports too close to the ignition chamber. It never ran as well as the Laser with the same setup, but it was a convertible. Ditched it after it blew a second head gasket. Sold at 130k miles to some shmoe that wanted a project J car.

* 93 Accord. Purchased used by my parents, given to me when the LeBaron died. The radiator cracked (wtf is up with plastic top radiators??), an ignition module left me stranded on 3 occasions, and the salt on PA killed most of the underside by the time we sold it. Otherwise not a bad car. Sold at 130k for the Escape.

* 99 Elantra. Purchased new. Sold with 130k miles and 10 years later because I wanted something more efficient. It blew an ignition coil on me on the PA turnpike, which ripped a whole on the flex pipe... which I didn't fix right away. That cascaded into a CAT failure, but the CATs were replaced under warranty. That sums up the major repairs for that car. On this one I DID read the manual, and got that @#$@#$ timing belt changed.

* 01 Escape. Purchased used. And like pretty much every 1st gen escape it ate through it's transmission bands (wtf Ford? Why on earth use the Prode tranny on this ute??). Replaced under warranty and the only major service before being sold at around 100k miles.

* 06 Sedona. Purchased Used. Currently at 100k miles and only major repair that I did was recall. It presently has a hole in a piece of flex intake that needs to be repaired for $40, but I don't consider that "major".

* 05 Prius. Purchased used. Currently at 112k miles and required a replacement on a coolant/emissions item (warm coolant is stored in a thermos at shutdown to help warm the engine up faster for short stops). Total was around $350. That, and tires and oil changes, is the only work done on it for nearly 100k miles that I've owned it. It took me 15 years to get a hatchback and I don't think I'll ever go back to a sedan.

So, the only ones I would consider "crap" are the two Chryslers. One new, one used. Everything else has been pretty good for me. Both used and new. So check out a site like http://www.truedelta.com/ or Edmunds to see how the used cars in your list shake out. I would buy pretty much any Hyundai/Kia made after 06 as they're just worlds better in terms of quality vs their 90s counterparts. I just wish they'd stick the Optima/Sonata hybrid drivetrain in their smaller cars.

[Seshat]

Every car I've had has been used: and as long as I've followed the guidelines above, I've been okay.

Though wolfie told me something I didn't know (diesels making the oil black quickly), and a few good ideas. And protege knows cars better than I do, so listen to him.

[wolfie]

* 01 Escape. Purchased used. And like pretty much every 1st gen escape it ate through it's transmission bands (wtf Ford? Why on earth use the Prode tranny on this ute??). Replaced under warranty and the only major service before being sold at around 100k miles.

* 06 Sedona. Purchased Used. Currently at 100k miles and only major repair that I did was recall. It presently has a hole in a piece of flex intake that needs to be repaired for $40, but I don't consider that "major".

Escape: That's what you get for buying a "slushbox". I've never heard of a real transmission EVER having problems with the brake bands - probably because they don't use them.

Sedona: Is the hole upstream or downstream from the air filter? If upstream, you're right about it not being "major". If downstream, fix it ASAP - it's letting dirty air into your engine, so it's going to wear faster than normal.

Don't knock the quality of '90s Hyundai products - other than issues with the "tinworm", my '96 Elantra is doing great with roughly 1/4 million km on the odometer.

Though wolfie told me something I didn't know (diesels making the oil black quickly)

Comes with the territory - I've put a lot of miles on a diesel in the last 7 years, probably more than you've driven in your lifetime.

[Ophbalance]

Escape: That's what you get for buying a "slushbox". I've never heard of a real transmission EVER having problems with the brake bands - probably because they don't use them.

They only offered the manual option very briefly in 01. It was mated to an underpowered 2.3L inline 4. And they wouldn't sell it with the AWD system. Oh, and my wife can barely drive as it is. Humanity wouldn't stand a chance with her at the hands of a manual .

Sedona: Is the hole upstream or downstream from the air filter? If upstream, you're right about it not being "major". If downstream, fix it ASAP - it's letting dirty air into your engine, so it's going to wear faster than normal.

It's the flex tubing between the intake and filter housing. But it's been duct taped until I get a new one .

Don't knock the quality of '90s Hyundai products - other than issues with the "tinworm", my '96 Elantra is doing great with roughly 1/4 million km on the odometer.

I said I was happy with 99 Elantra . The late nineties is when they really started to turn things around. The Accent, however, was a bit longer in improving. If I had to buy something "new" and not used I'd probably look at the newer Accent/Rio hatch with a stick.

[protege]

And protege knows cars better than I do, so listen to him.

Thanks for that! I'm no expert--it's only recently that I've started really working on them. Up until now, I simply didn't have a need to fix things myself. Then a certain project vehicle arrived, and that changed. I've had no choice but to learn. Not complaining at all

So far I've had...

'87 Ford Tempo. Dad bought it at an auction. Car looked OK, but had some annoying issues. Namely, its appetite for brake pads. This thing kept the parts companies in business until the engine blew up in '94.

'91 Toyota Tercel. First car I bought...and one that I still miss. It only went because I couldn't afford to rebuild the engine after 100,000 miles. I'd just started working, and couldn't afford to be without a car. Still, a fun ride, which never let me down. Very much a sports car in the MG mold...and economic to run. MPG was usually around 40-45, with one instance of 50

'00 Mazda Protege ES. My first new car! Mazda wasn't kidding when it had "BMW verve for half the price." Great driver's car, but a pain to work on. The main problems I had were door locks that wouldn't open (even from inside the car), creaking and cracking noises from the suspension, and a stereo that sometimes refused to work. I managed to fix things myself. One of the lock relays had gone, requiring me to take the door apart. Fitting uprated struts took care of the suspension problems, while a non-factory stereo replaced the one that came with the car. Sold that car on in 2007, after 127,000 miles, when it was going to need major work to get through state inspection.

'07 Toyota Corolla CE. Again bought new. Unless you *really* want that body kit or "wood" dash inlays, don't bother with the S and LE models Still, the car has been extremely reliable. No problems, other than regular maintenance after 76,000 miles.

Hyundais have indeed improved. They used to be junk. Now they're on par with Toyota and Honda. But, the '00 Elantra I looked at years ago kinda left a sour taste in my mouth. It had just been redesigned, and I wasn't amused to sit in a new one...and the driver's seat promptly collapsed under my weight! I'm not a big guy by any means, but But, after seeing how reliable my dad's Hyundais have been, who knows, one might find its way onto my driveway.

[Seshat]

My car knowledge has stalled, mostly because I no longer dare to drive. My disabilities have caused my reflexes and my rapid-mental-processing capacity to become unreliable - and I deem the risk too great.

I won't drive a car with unreliable steering, or brakes, or bald tires. And I won't drive with a brain that's just as unreliable.

So since I'm not using cars, I'm not the one who's dropping down to the mechanic to get things fixed anymore. I used to make a point of asking exactly what was wrong, how it'd been fixed, all that sort of thing. That habit kept my skills and knowledge fresh.
(Oh, I had to have the background knowledge for it to make sense - but my childhood included helping Dad fix our cars.)

[wolfie]

But, the '00 Elantra I looked at years ago kinda left a sour taste in my mouth. It had just been redesigned

Are you sure it was an '00 and not an '01? The reason I ask is that you say it had just been redesigned, and the redesign was between '00 and '01, not '99 and '00. Mine is a '96, and its "generation" ran from '96 to '00. Try searching automotive classifieds for Elantra station wagons of the following years: '95, '96, '00, and '01 - you won't find any '95 or '01, because the wagon was offered only in the '96-'00 generation (the Elantra Touring, offered for a couple years ending in '12, was not based on the same platform as the sedan of the same model year).

[protege]

It might have been an '01, but I don't remember now. I do remember that the dealership in question hadn't been selling Hyundais very long. The Elantra was the only one inside--the dealership was in the process of constructing a separate showroom for Nissan and Hyundai at the time. Having four brands (Pontiac, Nissan, Hyundai, and Subaru) meant that things were a bit cramped.