Flirting vs. Hitting On

[Jester]

My friend and I are having a bit of a disagreement when it comes to flirting and what it means.

Background: a friend of hers said something on Facebook, and I said something to her friend that was unquestionably flirtatious and suggestive.

So my friend said something about me hitting on her friend.

I claim I was not hitting on her, I was merely flirting. She and her friend both claim the is no difference. I say they're both freakin' nuts.

My argument is that it's a matter of intention. When you're flirting, you're not necessarily trying to get anything. When you're hitting on someone, you most certainly are. If I'm hitting on a girl, I am definitely trying to get something from her, be it a kiss or some serious mattress actuon. But I flirt with just about everyone, including tons of people I don't want to sleep with and wouldn't if you paid me.

I flirt with friends, coworkers, employers, wives and girlfriends of all of there above, husbands and boyfriends of all of the above (though definitely more often with the women). I flirt with customers, people in bars, bartenders, waitresses, bank clerks, my landlord, airport counter agents, retail clerks, etc.

A perfect example of what I'm talking about. A few months ago, I had a group of six sixtysomething at my bar. One of them was a bit annoyed with her friends, and turned to me.

GREY PANTHER: "What are you doing later, darlin'?"
JESTER: "I don't know, what are we doing?"
GREY PANTHER: "What do you think about older women?"
JESTER: "Why, do you know any?"

And yes, that was one of my best comebacks to a bar customer ever.

But that was a perfect example of flirting without hitting on someone. I wasn't trying to "get somewhere" with that woman. I wasn't trying to boink her. I was just being my naturally flirtatious self.

My friend claims that that is because I'm a bartender. Au contraire, mon frer. I don't flirt because I'm a good bartender. I'm a good bartender because I'm a flirt! (And other reasons, of course.)

And it's not just at work. That's just the way I am. But it's not even just about me. I see people flirting all the time where it is truly harmless, where there is no real attempt by one party to "woo" the other. At work, out and about, in school, online....it happens all the time.

To put it bluntly and crassly, I likened it to the difference between murder and manslaughter.

So, what do you folks think? Is there harmless flirtation? Or is all flirting to be taken as one hitting on another?

[Aislin]

I completely agree. I flirt with lots of people. I am happily married and wouldn't cheat. My hubby on the other hand can't tell if someone someone is flirting with him to save his life and can't flirt to save his life. It is adorable to watch him flail at flirting like a giraffe with 2 sprained knees. No wonder we work. I have friends I flirt with but I'm careful because some guys take it wrong or too far.

[Kittish]

Yes, there's a difference, and I think you nailed it. Intent. Unfortunately, intent can be kind of hard to determine for other people, especially in a format where nuances of tone and body language don't carry over at all.

[Jester]

They don't usually carry over, no. But that doesn't mean there isn't a difference. Especially when the accusation of hitting on is leveled, is countered by an "I was just flirting," and is met by a "There's no difference."

[Kittish]

All I can come up with on the 'no difference' part is that maybe, in whatever version of the world those women live in there really isn't a difference? Possibly they can't conceive of someone flirting with them as NOT being a direct attempt to get something from them. Bit of an ego thing, right?

[Jester]

Could be. My friend told me that every time a guy's flirted with her, he's been hitting on her. Of course, that's not true for everyone, but I can see why she would think that based on that history.

[emax4]

I've been hit on / flirted with before, but because I've been teased about "being liked" back in Junior High (when in fact it was teasing, not a girl actually showing interest in me), I thought they were just being mean and teasing me, not showing any actual interest. My defense was that you learn social skills in school, so that was there way of teasing me, and I never knew any actual flirting.

[mathnerd]

I claim I was not hitting on her, I was merely flirting. She and her friend both claim the is no difference. I say they're both freakin' nuts.

I think you're both right and you're both wrong. The English language is incredibly nuanced. Here's how I'd break it down:

Flirting: Implies intent of wanting more out of this person than a passing conversation. The"more" is either friendship or a romantic, longer term relationship.

Hitting on: implies more of a sex only, one night stand type of intent.

Flirtatious behavior: Behavior nearly identical to flirting, but without intent of any kind. This is what you're describing with your interactions with your customers.

Background: a friend of hers said something on Facebook, and I said something to her friend that was unquestionably flirtatious and suggestive.

Having seen the post, I'd say that's putting it mildly.

So my friend said something about me hitting on her friend.

It's worth noting that when your friend was saying that, she was laughing her ass off, almost cheering you on. The term wasn't used in any sort of derogatory way towards you.

My argument is that it's a matter of intention. When you're flirting, you're not necessarily trying to get anything. When you're hitting on someone, you most certainly are. If I'm hitting on a girl, I am definitely trying to get something from her, be it a kiss or some serious mattress actuon. But I flirt with just about everyone, including tons of people I don't want to sleep with and wouldn't if you paid me.

See the above definitions and addition of a third term.

I flirt with friends, coworkers, employers, wives and girlfriends of all of there above, husbands and boyfriends of all of the above (though definitely more often with the women). I flirt with customers, people in bars, bartenders, waitresses, bank clerks, my landlord, airport counter agents, retail clerks, etc.

A perfect example of what I'm talking about. A few months ago, I had a group of six sixtysomething at my bar. One of them was a bit annoyed with her friends, and turned to me.

GREY PANTHER: "What are you doing later, darlin'?"
JESTER: "I don't know, what are we doing?"
GREY PANTHER: "What do you think about older women?"
JESTER: "Why, do you know any?"

And yes, that was one of my best comebacks to a bar customer ever.

But that was a perfect example of flirting without hitting on someone. I wasn't trying to "get somewhere" with that woman. I wasn't trying to boink her. I was just being my naturally flirtatious self.

All perfect examples of flirtatious behavior.

My friend claims that that is because I'm a bartender. Au contraire, mon frer. I don't flirt because I'm a good bartender. I'm a good bartender because I'm a flirt! (And other reasons, of course.)

How, exactly, did this conversation go? Did she say that you developed the flirting tendencies because you're a bartender or did she say something to the effect of "yeah, but you're a bartender. That's part of your job". If it's the latter, then she wasn't really implying you're a flirt because of your job, but that, at least while you're working, it's simply part of it. And again, I'm going to go back to this simply being flirtatious behavior with no real flirting involved.

And it's not just at work. That's just the way I am. But it's not even just about me. I see people flirting all the time where it is truly harmless, where there is no real attempt by one party to "woo" the other. At work, out and about, in school, online....it happens all the time.

I've seen all three behaviors out of you Jester. The flirting you do when you're actually interested in a woman is very different than the flirtatious behavior behind the bar or with your friends. It's also very different from your behavior when you're just thinking about casual sex (though in the interest of full disclosure, I've only ever "seen" that via a couple text message conversations when you were remarking on the, um, scenery, at whatever bar you were at at the time). It's different.

All I can come up with on the 'no difference' part is that maybe, in whatever version of the world those women live in there really isn't a difference? Possibly they can't conceive of someone flirting with them as NOT being a direct attempt to get something from them. Bit of an ego thing, right?

I disagree with the last statement. I know all the players involved here. Jester's friend is a bit standoffish with people she doesn't know. Quite the opposite of having a big ego, she's actually got a fairly significant self image problem. We're working on that. It's not that she's a bitch, she's just fairly introverted, doesn't like crowds all that much, and isn't terribly comfortable around strangers. She gives off certain "don't fuck with me" vibes so by the time a guy is actively flirting with her, he's gone through a fair amount of effort already just to get her to talk, so there's already an established interest. Whether or not she realizes it, she's been making the same distinction between what I defined above as the difference between real flirting and flirtatious behavior for as long as I can remember, without ever putting any sort of term to them. She has never, up until this point (where she got roped into this discussion) made any real distinction between flirting and hitting on, but since the discussion started, has already admitted that she can see where there's a difference.

The friend's friend is in her 30's and newly divorced from the husband she married when she was very young. She's not all that experienced in the dating scene.

Edited to add this, as I didn't see it before I replied the first time.

They don't usually carry over, no. But that doesn't mean there isn't a difference. Especially when the accusation of hitting on is leveled, is countered by an "I was just flirting," and is met by a "There's no difference."

Let's be clear what the actual statement that started all this actually was. You offered up your lap as the answer to "what's the best place to go for New Year's Eve."

[wolfie]

Jester, there's nothing wrong with being a flirt - so long as you're not a Genefran flirt. Cookies for reference.

[Seshat]

As another person who can't tell the difference between flirting and hitting on: please be aware that to some people, the point is rather moot.

[MoonCat]

Speaking as someone who once took several hours to figure out that a guy had asked her out (granted, the guy wasn't as direct as he could have been), I'll second Seshat's comment.

But also this: In France, I've heard, it's very common for men to flirt with women without any intent of going further. It's normal for a man to, say, compliment a woman on looking good, without expecting more. But in the U.S., we equate flirting with hitting on someone. We're not subtle here, we're very direct. So if someone says something that sounds flirtatious, we tend to assume there's an ulterior motive.

Let's be clear what the actual statement that started all this actually was. You offered up your lap as the answer to "what's the best place to go for New Year's Eve."

Frankly, I think that's hilarious, although I admit if I were the woman in the Facebook post, I would wonder if it was meant as a general statement or intended to suggest something else. I think that's because women tend to look for nuance in a statement, even if the comment was just meant as a joke.

[mathnerd]

Frankly, I think that's hilarious, although I admit if I were the woman in the Facebook post, I would wonder if it was meant as a general statement or intended to suggest something else. I think that's because women tend to look for nuance in a statement, even if the comment was just meant as a joke.

She thought it was hysterical. I also found it hysterical, along with the rest of the exchange in the comments on that status. I sent her the link to this thread, which she also finds hysterical. She's not a member here, but she had this to add (quoting directly from her message to me):

I would like to add that just because women don't see the difference in the two does not mean they have big egos, like you said, it could be the lack of experience or the fact that they can't tell the difference between what vibe the guy is giving off. Of course, that vibe can start out as one thing and easily transition into the other based on the interactions of the two people.

After giving more thought to the matter, I've decided that essentially what's happening here is there's more than two options and we're all trying to get those options neatly separated into two different categories and drawing the lines in different places.

[Greenday]

You can flirt with someone without hitting on them, but you can't hit on someone without flirting. It can get pretty confusing for a lot of people to tell the difference. I flirt a lot and my friends know this. But anyone who isn't good friends with me might not perceive it as just having fun.

[NecessaryCatharsis]

You can flirt with someone without hitting on them, but you can't hit on someone without flirting.

I disagree, I've been hit on lots of times that haven't been the slightest flirtatious, just crass and rude.

I agree with lots of people here though that flirting is a fun conversation with sexual innuendo for the sake of a fun conversation, while hitting on someone is for the purpose of achieving sexual congress with them of whatever degree. It can sometimes be difficult for the recipient to tell the difference.

[Jester]

I think Greenday just summed it up better than anyone else here, myself included. Please, everyone, if you did not read his comments above this one, go back and do so. The nail was hit squarely on the head.

It's also very different from your behavior when you're just thinking about casual sex (though in the interest of full disclosure, I've only ever "seen" that via a couple text message conversations when you were remarking on the, um, scenery, at whatever bar you were at at the time).

Admiring the female scenery at a bar and thinking about casual sex are not always or even often the same thing. Sometimes, but not always. Sometimes it's nice to just enjoy the view. Which I do. Often. Because, let's face it....I AM a guy.

Let's be clear what the actual statement that started all this actually was. You offered up your lap as the answer to "what's the best place to go for New Year's Eve."

Let's be even more clear than that. The girl in question, who I have never met, recently friended me on Facebook from a suggestion from our mutual friend. Partly because this girl will be in Key West in a few months.

So, this girl that I've never met, but who I've basically gotten along with in our few interactions in Facebook, posted on Facebook the question, "So, where's the best place to be tonight for NYE?"

Happening to see this while eating dinner after work but before meeting up with friends for NYE festivities, and being a bit of a smartass and a bit of a FLIRT (emphasis added to make a point), I responded with the first thing that came to my head. Which was:

"Key West.

Or my lap...which happens to be in Key West."

Draw your own conclusions, CS.

As another person who can't tell the difference between flirting and hitting on: please be aware that to some people, the point is rather moot.

A lot of people can't tell the difference between a lot of things. But the rest of us don't always go around presuming that, or pondering, "I wonder if this person gets my reference to African swallows." They either do or they don't. Does that leave us a bit clueless sometimes regarding how other people perceive us?

Of course it does. Welcome to the human race. Where we don't always understand where other people are coming from.

You can flirt with someone without hitting on them, but you can't hit on someone without flirting.

Sure you can. I see it all the time. Some people have no ability or desire to flirt. Some are just crude asshats. "Hey babe, wanna go fuck?" would be an example of hitting on without flirting. Another one that is less crude but the same basic idea is, "Hey, you're hot....wanna get out of here?" I know some women may perceive that as flirting. For the life of me, I don't get how.