Here's an interesting discussion -- songwriting...

[mjr]

I made a similar post to this one on a songwriting forum I go to.

But has songwriting (mostly from a lyric standpoint) gone downhill over the past 15 or 20 years in "mainstream" music? Or have peoples' tastes, in general, changed? As an amateur lyricist, this is something I'm curious about. I mean, I write lyrics that aren't necessarily commercial, but I think might actually make (or end up as) good songs.

My post on the other forum was more along the lines of how people viewed Hank Williams as a songwriter.

I know every generation thinks "their" music was better. But I'm 41, and some music that I like (even more than "modern" music) was before my time.

Here are some examples I used from the thread on the other forum (all the quoted songs below are Hank Williams lyrics):

Six more miles to the graveyard,
Six more miles, long and sad,
Six more miles and leave my darlin',
Leave the best friend, I ever had.

That's from the song "Six More Miles (To the Graveyard)".

Or how about this:

Well sug', I took one look at you and it almost drove me mad
And then I even went and lost what little sense I had
Now I can't tell the day from night, I'm crazy as a loon
You got me chasin' rabbits, pullin' out my hair and howlin' at the moon

That's from "Howlin' At The Moon".

If you're lovin' me like i'm lovin' you
Baby, we're really in love
If you're happy with me like i'm happy with you
Old cupid just gave us a shove
If you're thinkin' of me like i'm thinkin' of you
Then i know what you're thinkin' of
If you're lovin' me like i'm lovin' you
Baby, we're really in love.

From "Baby, We're Really In Love"

Ev'rybody's lonesome for somebody else
But nobody's lonesome for me
Ev'rybody's thinkin' 'bout somebody else
But nobody thinks about me
When the time rolls around for me to lay down and die
I bet I'll have to go and hire me someone to cry
Ev'rybody's lonesome for somebody else
nobody is lonesome for me.

From "Nobody's Lonesome For Me".

Granted, there have been some weird lyrics in the past, but there's a lot of "modern" music that people across the spectrum listen to (and think is great) that I just don't particularly care for, and I have an eclectic taste in music, I think.

When I was growing up (and I'm 41) I was brought up on country, Elvis, The Beatles, The Rolling Stones, some classical/baroque, and some southern rock.

In the early to mid 1990's, I got into Nirvana a little. An ex girlfriend got me into Aerosmith and Metallica.

But most modern pop? Most modern music? Don't really care for it. It's even "invaded" country music. Some country music is now referred to by some as "pop country". And there's other types called "bro country".

In fact, I have a Pandora station that I listen to at the office for a couple of hours a day. It's more of a "Red Dirt/Texas Music/Americana" style station. Junior Brown, Johnny Cash, Hank Williams, Dale Watson, Wayne Hancock, people like that.

The most "modern" music I probably listen to is Garth Brooks, and lesser known artists across the country and rock genres.

What say you?

[Mental_Mouse]

I don't have much opinion about songwriting in general, but I do favor songs where I can understand the lyrics.

I also note that older songs (50's, 60s) tend to run short, generally around 3 minutes. Somewhere around the 80s (or maybe it was disco in the 70's), songs got a lot longer, up to 5 or 6 minutes even without "dance version" extensions.

[mjr]

I don't have much opinion about songwriting in general, but I do favor songs where I can understand the lyrics.

I also note that older songs (50's, 60s) tend to run short, generally around 3 minutes. Somewhere around the 80s (or maybe it was disco in the 70's), songs got a lot longer, up to 5 or 6 minutes even without "dance version" extensions.

Well...In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida was 17 minutes long...it came out in the 1960's

American Pie was 8 minutes, 33 seconds.

Free Bird (album version) was 9 minutes, 8 seconds.

Stairway to Heaven was 8 minutes, 2 seconds.

Apparently a lot of the bands in the 70's went to long songs...

http://www.vh1.com/news/52537/20-lon...ic-rock-songs/

[Kristev]

But yes, I take your point. Music hasn't had any real sensibility or soul to it, and the songwriting is now more about gimmics and shallow cleverness than anything really deep or interesting. It's been that way since roughly the mid-nineties.

[EricKei]

It's my understanding that many songs were restricted to certain lengths (3:30 or 3:05, IIRC -- Billy Joel even commented on it in one of his songs) because that's how the radio stations wanted it. Ideally, no shorter, and definitely no longer. AFAIK: When Bohemian Rhapsody first came out, for instance (over six minutes long), the general consensus was that it would never get radio play during the most active listening hours due to its length, and that most DJ's would likely reject it without even listening to it simply due to its length.

[dalesys]

I knew a DJ with an after-midnight show who got cussed by station management for playing Eat-A-Gob-A-Velveeta. He told them, "2,000 kids paid to see them here (SLC) yesterday."

[mjr]

I knew a DJ with an after-midnight show who got cussed by station management for playing Eat-A-Gob-A-Velveeta. He told them, "2,000 kids paid to see them here (SLC) yesterday."

Are you sure it wasn't "In The Garden of Eden" by I. Ron Butterfly?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulDC1w1ydLI

[dawnfire]

It's my understanding that many songs were restricted to certain lengths (3:30 or 3:05, IIRC -- Billy Joel even commented on it in one of his songs) because that's how the radio stations wanted it. Ideally, no shorter, and definitely no longer. AFAIK: When Bohemian Rhapsody first came out, for instance (over six minutes long), the general consensus was that it would never get radio play during the most active listening hours due to its length, and that most DJ's would likely reject it without even listening to it simply due to its length.

Freddie was sneaky and gave his friend Kenny Everett a reel to reel of it with the promise not to play it on air . Kenny took it and ran with it, teasing listeners with snippets and finally playing it 14 times over 2 days .

[EricKei]

That's just awesome ^__^

mjr-- That was the original intent/title of the song, non?

[MoonCat]

I'm no expert, but I know what I like. However, the opinion of our local paper's music critic, a guy who actually does know way more about music than I do, concurs with your opinion. He's very into indie groups as well as bands I've never even heard of, and he often mentions how this or that song (by well known groups like the Beatles) never got enough airplay or appreciation. He feels that most popular music now is all image, no substance.

I'll be honest, I don't pay much attention anymore to pop. I like what I like, and I'm always happy to find someone new whose music I enjoy. Much of what I like isn't particular "heavy" - I love Alice Cooper, for example; and other stuff may have a "message" or might be relevant to today's world politically, socially, etc.

When I was a dumb kid with too much time on my hands, I tried writing songs (not music, I never learned to play anything). I'm sure they were all awful

[Blue Ginger]

My music collection is unique, unusual, mixed, a little bizarre. I have everything from 50's big band to Pink, Buena Vista Social Club to Alice Cooper, The Lion King to Rocky Horror Picture Show, The Beatles to Muppets and Sesame Street. I have over nearly 7,000 songs on my iTunes alone. It would be more but I haven't been able to get my dad's record collection onto my laptop as yet. And I haven't had a chance to raid my brother's collection for a while.

I will definitely agree that songwriting has gone down hill for the more commercial artists. I love the comparison between Queen's Bohemian Rhapsody and Beyonce's Run the World (Girls). Skip the fact that Beyonce's song needed sooooooo many writers, but the lyrics aren't really anything at all.

All to frequently the lyrics are repetitive. It's almost like they came up with a couple of lines, called it done and went to lunch. Or started, went to lunch but had too long a lunch to get the brain cells to function again. The chorus is supposed to be repeated, not the verses too.

I've found the singer/songwriters and the bands that are able to write their own songs tend to have better lyrics. The singers/manufactured bands/tv show winners tend to have worse lyrics.

[mjr]

Skip the fact that Beyonce's song needed sooooooo many writers, but the lyrics aren't really anything at all.

I've never heard the song, but on the songwriting forum I go to, someone brought this up. It seems that the "answer" as to why songs like that one is rather odd.

From the person on that forum, who says he's knowledgeable of the music business:

If you look at most charting songs, you will find three, four or five names on them. Look in rock and pop, you will find up to thirteen or fourteen names. The reason is that now, everyone involved along the way seem to want credit, because in many cases, they are all responsible in a little way for a song's pathway.

You find people now that write "beats", so they are included. Production people that just add sounds, they are included. Managers. attorney's, etc. are all included, and of course, the artists themselves. And often, not many of those actually participated in them.

Emphasis mine.

[Blue Ginger]

Well now I know why every man and his dog gets included in the credits of the song. It still seems pretty silly to me, but whatever.

I'd still rather have people who actually know what they are doing involved than have a massive list of people credited that only added a word or a fart sound.

[mjr]

Well now I know why every man and his dog gets included in the credits of the song. It still seems pretty silly to me, but whatever.

It's actually very silly...because then each person gets a smaller slice of the pie.

So if you have a song that was "written" by, say, 8 people, they each get 1/8 of whatever money for that song.

So for simplicity's sake, let's say the song makes a million dollars. Each person only gets $125K. Now, that might seem like a lot, until you take into account that there may have only been three people that actively participated in the song (instrumentation and lyrics, let's say).

[Food Lady]

I find the most profound lyrics in '60s rock/psychedelic/whathaveyou. Examples:

It's A Beautiful Day's White Bird
Buffalo Springfield's For What It's Worth
The Doors' The End or Riders on the Storm
Barry McGuire's Eve of Destruction
Simon and Garfunkel's The Sun Is Burning