Human Pinata, or How to Be a "Man."

[Jester]

Call me a heartless bastard if you will, but I'd probably spend a while deliberately avoiding TD if I were in your shoes, Jester.

I don't think you're a heartless bastard, but you aren't in my shoes. I may not be a saint, as I have said, but I AM a nice guy, and I won't turn my back on a friend. I disagree strongly with her decision, and I feel like I am beating my head against the wall, but if everyone just up and abandons her, who will she be able to turn to if for nothing else emotional support? I can't be that heartless. It's not me. I DO understand your frustration, though. I feel it too. Something tells me, though, that BB is going to go out of his way to have TD avoid ME. After all, I pretty much told him what I thought of him when I said I look forward to "dancing over his mutilated corpse." I didn't really mince words on that one.

I forgot to ask this before, since I was (and am) royally pissed off, but weren't these two engaged before this incident? I hope they're not going ahead with the wedding...

They were. I have no idea what is going to happen, as all this is, to borrow the phrase, breaking news. And obviously I have not talked to TD much since it all blew up. As I said above, I kind of doubt BB is going to allow TD to have much contact with me after this. He has to know that I am not the only one that is telling TD to get the fuck away from him, but I have effectively made myself the face (or at least one of the faces) of that whole movement. I have effectively marked myself in his eyes.

I can't say anything else because what I would say is too harsh to post on this board.

Nothing most of us haven't thought or implied already, I'm sure.

[Pedersen]

Jester, I have been reading this as often as a new post is made in this thread (well, almost). I have been rooting for TD to put this guy away, and for her to get a better life than the one with him.

TD was a hero in my eyes. Someone who actually would do what's right not just for her, but for anybody who might have come after her. She was protecting herself, and any other woman who could enter his life.

She's failed a whole bunch of people by doing this. Everybody who's been rooting for her. All the women who needed one more positive example to look to, so they could get out of such abusive relationships. Her friends. Her family. You.

She's failed so many people, just because she's afraid to be alone.

I'm disappointed and disgusted by her, almost more than I am by BB. If you ever do see her again, please tell her how much she's failed everybody else. And that I hope she is keeping the company that she holds so dear that beatings are worth it.

Right now, I gotta think she deserves him.

[MMATM]

I don't think you're a heartless bastard, but you aren't in my shoes. I may not be a saint, as I have said, but I AM a nice guy, and I won't turn my back on a friend. I disagree strongly with her decision, and I feel like I am beating my head against the wall, but if everyone just up and abandons her, who will she be able to turn to if for nothing else emotional support?

<snip>

He has to know that I am not the only one that is telling TD to get the fuck away from him, but I have effectively made myself the face (or at least one of the faces) of that whole movement. I have effectively marked myself in his eyes.

Part I:
I'll have to concede that not knowing TD has impaired my judgment of her situation a bit. I was in a similar (though admittedly not as serious) situation recently with a friend (who's become quite the thundercunt as a result of the incident(s) in question) and her abusive, loud, obnoxious, literally off-his-meds, frat-boy boyfriend. I felt often that continuing to help wasn't worth it, but didn't bail, and now almost wish I had.
Helping her through many a drunk "never going back to that asshole" night, her leading on one of my best friends before harshly blowing him off for (you guessed it) said asshole, becoming more and more of a bitch to her roommate (who also happens to be my girlfriend), and now, ultimately, trying my best not to associate with her.
Will I still stick up for her? Sure. Especially to said blown-off friend, who still harbors a bit of a grudge over the whole deal. But only because she eventually made up her mind to leave the asshole (demanding, uncaring, emotionally abusive, obnoxious, and of course cheating were some of his *better* qualities) and though she went through some rough "flavor-of-the-week" times with guys, she's sort of settled down in a relationship with a better guy. Though that's only a couple months old and still not totally solid, so we shall see.
But enough with the threadjack. I guess I just don't want to be seen as the guy who will bail on his friends when they get annoying, because I'm not. In your situation maybe I wouldn't cut TD loose, but as I don't know her or have any really comparable experience I can't say for sure. I'm only recommending you "cut loose" to give her a taste of what her choice really comes down to.


Part II:
It may be safer to avoid TD when BB might be around, or will be around, as someone with a record of violent crimes isn't usually a good bet to provoke. As for her place of work, I'd tell her not to quit no matter how much BB pressures her, as her coworkers seemed pretty supportive from what you said before. However, as they're likely to disapprove of her going back to BB, they might come off as harsh to TD when they find out that she's back with him, and that might give him all the leverage he needs to force her to quit.


In summary, TD has dug herself a very deep hole in a very deep pile of shit, and will hopefully realize this soon, before it becomes too deep to dig herself out. Best of luck.

[Jester]

TD was a hero in my eyes.

She's failed so many people, just because she's afraid to be alone.

Right now, I gotta think she deserves him.

TD was a hero to many. And you are right, she failed many. But more than you, or me, or the CSers, or her friends or coworkers, or other women, she failed herself. And that is what makes everything so sad.

And though she made this choice, I don't believe that she deserves him. I don't think any woman in such a situation deserves such treatment. It's a freakin' shame.

I guess I just don't want to be seen as the guy who will bail on his friends when they get annoying, because I'm not.

I'm only recommending you "cut loose" to give her a taste of what her choice really comes down to.

It may be safer to avoid TD when BB might be around, or will be around, as someone with a record of violent crimes isn't usually a good bet to provoke.

As for her place of work, I'd tell her not to quit no matter how much BB pressures her, as her coworkers seemed pretty supportive from what you said before.

I don't think anyone saw you as that kind of guy....you were reacting to this situation. It's understandable.

I may not be cutting her loose, and I will be there for her....but as I said, the next time around, if she survives, who is going to go out on a limb to help her? I am not sure I will. Shoulder to cry on is one thing. Risking bodily injury to help her do something she has a history of not doing? Quite another.

I have no intention of seeking out BB, and I am guessing he is not going to try to make himself look any worse by seeking it either. The cops may roll their eyes at him beating her, since she won't walk away, but I don't doubt they would not take kindly to him getting violent with one of their favorite magicians, who has no history of violence. But I am also not going to avoid places just because he may be there. What I told him on the phone and via text I would tell him to his face. Fuck him. Beating up a 100 pound woman does not make me fear you at all.

Oh, I wouldn't want her to quit, it's a good job, and the people are very supportive....though of course they are going to be a bit less so when all this breaks. But if she doesn't listen to me about leaving him and pressing charges and going through with the restraining order, I doubt she is going to listen to my advice on her job if he convinces her otherwise.

[Jester]

Kind of an update:

I just got off the phone with the person that TD was staying with. No one, that we know of, has heard at all from TD other than text messages. We already know that BB has her phone. I am not going to get into specifics on this forum, but various circumstances lead us to believe that this was a choice by TD, and not something that happened against her will or choice. However, we have not completely discounted that possibility. Also, while she may have gone back to him by her own choice, the fact that no one has heard from her directly makes us wonder what shape she is in. Frankly, we don't even know if she is alive, or beaten to a bloody pulp (again) or what. She is supposed to work tomorrow night. We may know more then, if only about her physical condition. Even if she is totally alright physically, though, I would not be surprised if she did not show up for work. BB knows her workplace is completely against him, top to bottom.

I don't want to worry anyone unnecessarily....we have no concrete reason to believe that anything untoward has happened to TD. But with this kind of situation, you never know.

*sigh* I'll keep y'all posted.

I hate this shit.

[MMATM]

Oh, shit.

I hope, for everyone's sake, she's ok. Well, not for BB's sake. He can rot in hell. But for her sake, for the sake of her friends, and for everyone here, I hope she's fine.

You're not on a very big island. Where could she have disappeared to? Other than BB's place, of course? And it could be that she's ashamed that she's let everyone down and is simply laying low because she doesn't want to face everyone. Even though that would mean she definitely went back to BB, it would mean that she's not entirely lost at the same time as meaning that she's ok.

Keep updating as you have been, Jester. You've got the whole board behind you. As does TD.

[MadMike]

Oh, shit.

Those were the exact words that ran thru my head when I read Jester's latest update. I hope some good news comes out of this, but I can't help being uneasy.

[Jester]

And those were the exact same words that went through my head when my phone rang early this afternoon, after a lengthy text message conversation with (I had thought) TD, and I saw it was TD's phone calling me.....and I answered it to hear BB's voice. And he's trying to convince me it was an accident and he didn't hit her.

Yeah, that was a kick in the stomache.

I hope he fucking dies. Slowly. Painfully. And soon.

[MadMike]

I hope he fucking dies. Slowly. Painfully. And soon.

You and me both, man.

[Talon]

Jester,

I'm sorry I'm so late arriving to this thread, on account of my exams.

I'm going to tell you all a story about a kid I once knew very well. He was small, nerdy, quiet type, therefore a prime target for bullies. He never fought back, either believing fighting violence with violence was wrong, or that he wouldn't stand much chance. One day some other kids decided they couldn't be silent witnesses any longer, and they went to the teacher. The kid was asked if he really was being bullied.

The kid wasn't exactly winning any popularity contests as it was, but he knew that no one liked a rat. On the other hand, somehow he knew that if he... if I had stayed silent, those other kids who weren't my friends, who owed me nothing, had stuck their necks out for nothing. Denying the truth would have meant I betrayed them.

That's exactly what TD has done. She's betrayed everyone who stood up for her. In my eyes, she's no longer a victim. She's chosen to destroy herself. For the time being Jester, I think it's best to leave her behind to suffer the consequences of her own actions.

That said, I don't think anyone deserves her fate. If by some miracle she pulls her head out of her self-indulgent hindquarters, help her out. But she needs to understand crystal-clear that she stopped being a victim when she betrayed her friends. Another betrayal could leave her with no friends at all, and no help in climbing out of her self-made pit.

That's all, sorry if my post was angrier than intended. I'm going to sleep now, if I can.

***While I was typing I missed the last few posts. Think TD will get the message this time?

[MMATM]

You and me both, man.

Third?-ed?

I'm going to bed, as it's 2am. But you can bet I'll be up at the ass-crack of dawn checking for updates. Jester, you're on Eastern Time! Go to bed!

...but keep your phone on and within reach.

[Jester]

2 am is not late for me. I am a night owl.

Just never call me early in the morning. I am, shall we say, rather unpleasant at those times.

[marasbaras]

While nobody deserves that kind of treatment, TD has chosen it.

Just stay away. There's nothing you can do now. And, any support you give will likely only reinforce her moronic decision.

[Jester]

And, any support you give will likely only reinforce her moronic decision.

Oh, I won't support her in any way on this, and will make my opinion on the whole mess painfully clear. Doesn't mean I won't provide a shoulder to cry on....if nothing else, maybe having someone to talk to and to continue to tell her how bad her situation is will help her in the long run. Though, based on history, both hers and others', I wouldn't hold my breath.

[Kusanagi]

Oh, I won't support her in any way on this, and will make my opinion on the whole mess painfully clear. Doesn't mean I won't provide a shoulder to cry on....if nothing else, maybe having someone to talk to and to continue to tell her how bad her situation is will help her in the long run. Though, based on history, both hers and others', I wouldn't hold my breath.

Okay, I'm going to attempt to put this in a way that won't offend anyone, as my cold blooded cynicysm is showing pretty hard right now.

Based on my experience, it won't do any good. You've provided her the best possible means of escape, stuck your neck out and then she willingly went back.

Assuming that it's not the million-to-one shot where she was kidnapped, to me, that is nothing short of betrayal.

If you continue to be there in that regard, you're just a crutch (her words, not mine) and she'll use you as such, getting away from him, running to you, until she's no longer scared and then going back to him.

That cycle never breaks no matter how old you get, unless the person makes a concious effort to do so. Once you give someone that chance, and they willingly deny it, personally, it would take alot for me to offer that chance a second time.

Were I in your position, I honestly believe I would wash my hands of it and not be involved in the situation at all anymore. Wether that makes you more noble or more stupid than I, that I cannot say.

She made her own decision and unfortunately has to live with the consequences.

If someone doesn't respect themselves, it's very hard to find them worthy of yours. And no, I'm not talking about esteem issues here.

I don't mean to sound cold, but the fact she's in her 30s and I've seen this happen with friends all over every age group, it really makes me numb to the situation after a while. "You don't like the situation? Change it." Especially after pulling a 180 like that, she wasn't even wishy washy leading up to it.

Anger isn't the right term, but dissapointed would fit it better.

That's about as nicely as I can put my thoughts.