Buying a Car. HELP

[ApolloSZ]

Yes, thats right. Your local neighbourhood deity is being unleashed upon the roads, UNSUPERVISED.


Suddenly it is happening sooner than I expected, as in this weekend (its currently wednesday.......)

Ofcourse, if I don't find the right one, I won't be buying out of neccessity, but timing issues etc mean preferably it is purchased this visit. Dad is taking me out and about, making it a father son thing, and hes going to be trading in his Ford Territory for a smaller car (they don't use it for half a year) at the same time. We figure this might help us with getting good deals.

As for me, I'm looking at 2000 or newer, and have a budget of NZD$8000. I'm liking a Ford Mondeo (Sedan or station wagon) or similar car. But really, it just needs to be sedan sized. My manly 6'2" frame, does not like hatchbacks.

After that I need to drive it back from Christchurch to Wellington.... road trip, woo!

So my question to my worshipp..... CS'ers ( :P let me have my fun) is

What sort of questions should I be asking the car dealers, and things to look out for in cars.

Please note, no legal/currency stuff, as I'm in New Zealand. Mucho appreciated, and in return, I will post pics, and offer cookies I stole from Dave

[Aethian]

Honestly Apollo (and if we're going the deity route...have you called your twin lately? )

The best thing to do is have a appointment setup at a local mechanic that you trust to go over the car with a fine toothed comb. Mine does this for free since they have been taking care of the PT Cruiser.

Also I wouldn't go newer then 2008 for the reason that you'll loose more in depreciation. So look for something in the 06-08 range. Make sure you drive over all speeds, make left and right turns, and look for those streets with the sharp turns. Because that was the thing that nixed a very very nice car, the mirrors were in the way, no mater which way I had em.

[Squeaksmyalias]

Get a Jeep wrangler! Then we can be twins!
Lets see...lessons I learned.
1) I agree with the fine tooth comb.
2) make sure that it has the heat and AC and they work
3)TEST DRIVE!
4) The mileage might be LOW, but dont go with a former rental. They get beat up. Poor jeep.

I made those mistake, I know dumb, but I needed a car FAST since I drove all day for work and I wanted a jeep. Now that all the bugs are worked out I love my jeep, but having to deal with a transmission going out to young in life, and a lousy O2 sensor and the back seat not being attached properly!!! (some renter took it out and then beat it up trying to get it back in, no one checked to make sure it sat correctly in the mounts so it would move when I stopped quickly ) I won't go for a former rental again.

Good luck!

[Jester]

What sort of questions should I be asking the car dealers, and things to look out for in cars.

Having purchased a few vehicles, and helped others purchase same, I have some suggestions.

Ofcourse, if I don't find the right one, I won't be buying out of neccessity, but timing issues etc mean preferably it is purchased this visit.

First and foremost, do NOT tell the people at the car lots that you hope/expect/need to get one this weekend. Do not give them any timetable. Ever. You and your father need to have the attitude that you can walk off the lot any time, and that you don't really need the car. Act like YOU are doing THEM a favor by being there checking out their cars. Don't be an ass, mind you. Just be nonchalant.

There are two things you never let a car salesman know: how soon you need the vehicle, and how much you have to spend. If you want to keep it in a certain budget, lie about that budget. Always claim to have less to spend than you have, just as they will try to sell you on a car that is more than what they are willing to part with it for.

Basically, never tip your hand.

As for me, I'm looking at 2000 or newer, and have a budget of NZD$8000. I'm liking a Ford Mondeo (Sedan or station wagon) or similar car. But really, it just needs to be sedan sized. My manly 6'2" frame, does not like hatchbacks.

See my above comments about budget.

However, be absolutely honest with them about what you need, what you want, and what you will not accept. Make a list ahead of time.

For example, when I was looking for the current Jestermobile, I told them that I wanted something like my old vehicle, but newer: a midsize SUV, built on a truck platform (NOT on a car platform) that was durable with decent gas mileage. I also would NOT buy a Dodge (past horrible experiences), and I would prefer to not have a red vehicle (most noticeable color to cops). If possible (though not a requirement at all), a blue vehicle would have been a nice bonus. A radio and AC (I live in the tropics) was also a requirement of mine.

For you, from what you listed, it seems you want a sedan or station wagon, or something of similar size, and that will fit your frame.

Also, test drive. In the test drive, test EVERYTHING!! How it handles, how it steers (not the same thing), how it accelerates, how it brakes, how it panic brakes, how it accelerates or brakes out of a turn, how it shifts, how it downshifts, how it starts, how it idles, how it backs up, how nimble it is when parking. And don't limit your testing to mechanical issues. Check out the doors, the door locks, the trunk, the size of the trunk, the size of the back seat (get in there yourself, damn it), the radio, the windshield wipers, the interior lights, the headlights, the brake lights, the windows, the radio, etc. Even check out the various compartments and cubby holes, such as the center console and glove compartment. Check. Out. EVERYTHING.

And don't limit your check to things that you know about. Either bring a mechanic with you, if possible, or arrange to have a mechanic you know and trust check the vehicle out. When I was shopping for my previous Jestermobile, my friend Psycho came with me. Psycho's JOB is to work on and fix cars 5 days a week. He knows his shit. On one lot, at night, with only the lot lights to see by, while we were looking over one car, Psycho asked the salesman if the car had ever been in a wreck. Salesman said no. Psycho then asked, "Well then, why was it repainted?" Huh? was my reaction. "What?" was the salesman's. Psycho: "Yeah, you can see the different paints here, here, and here." Much backpedaling by the salesman. We left the car, the lot, and the salesman behind.

Ask about everything. See a Carfax (or the NZ equivalent) if possible. And by "if possible" I mean if such a thing exists in NZ. If it does, but they can't or won't show it to you, move on. NEVER take a salesman's word on a car's history. If you can, bring a laptop with you and look up the general history of that car's make and model. Check for any recalls and/or reviews of that model by the experts and consumers. Query the salesman on same.

Ask, ask, ask, ask, ask, ask, and ask some more. Anything you can think of.

Remember, this is going to be YOUR car that you will depend on, and invest several thousand dollars in, for several years.

Do. Not. Be. Shy.

[Mishi]

*Nodding after reading Jester's list* That's exactly what the blokes in my family would say (All mechanics or mechanically-minded ). My small snippet of advice: Try really hard to find a decent car. If you settle for something that only has 1 or 2 things to fix, you'll probably end up spending 2-3 times as much money and time as you expected, as well as finding other urgent problems along the way.

[Jester]

If you settle for something that only has 1 or 2 things to fix, you'll probably end up spending 2-3 times as much money and time as you expected, as well as finding other urgent problems along the way.

Depending on what the things are, of course. I would say if you have to get a car with 1 or 2 things to fix, make sure those things are non-mechanical. For example, in my current Jestermobile, there is no way to adjust the passenger side seat's seatback up or down. The position it's in is the only position available. Since I am almost never in the passenger seat, and my passengers can damn well learn to live with that one minor detail, no problem. (Also I honestly didn't notice that when I bought the truck, for if I had, I would have requested the dealership fix it before I bought the thing, as once I took it off the lot, the "by as is" clause took effect, and I would have no recourse on it.) Another thing wrong with my truck that I have learned to live with is that the gas gauge doesn't work worth a damn. I didn't notice this either when I was checking out the vehicle, as it simply looked like it had a full tank of gas. Unfortunately for me, it always either looks completely full or completely empty. I learned to live with this by using my trip odometer as my gas tank. Since my current truck is just a newer version of my old truck (same make and model, 11 years newer), I had a good concept on how much gas it would use in town/on the highway, so I know at what point I need to fill up. Ideal situation? Perhaps not. But it has put me in a position where I ALWAYS fill up the tank, so far less trips to the gas station for just five or ten bucks' worth, and I never try to squeeze a little more out of it as it hovers around E. To be honest, I just about prefer this method to the standard method.

While neither of the above situations are ideal, they are also not mechanical in nature, and I can live with them.

[jedimaster91]

Expanding on the research note, Edmunds is a valuable resourse. It's usually my first stop when I see a car I might be interested in buying.

[RecoveringKinkoid]

Jester has good advice. (well, everyone does, but he covers a lot of what I would suggest in particular)

And I especially second the "be willing to walk away" advice. Do not become emotionally attached to the deal. Any deal you get can and will be duplicated elsewhere. There is no "one time deals" anywhere. Do not let them try and make you think there is.

Bring someone with you and play "good cop bad cop." The good cop makes them hungry for the sale and more motivated to deal. The bad cop makes them worry you might walk at any time if they try to pull anything shady.

Do not let them decide how much you can pay for the car. That's not their business. That's for you to determine, not them. I would suggest not telling them how much you want to spend until talk gets serious. And if you ask a salesman how much a car is, don't take "let me talk to my manager" for an answer. He's a damn salesman, the car has a price. If he won't tell you what it is, get someone over there who will and deal with THAT person. That "let me talk to my manager" stuff is horseshit.

Best deal I ever got, I picked out a van and a truck, then talked about the prices for both. I prefaced all this with "I am interested in both, but I'm not buying today no matter what." Hence the gauntlet was thrown. Told them, well, this is what I was I was looking to pay, but I'm not haggling on an empty stomach. I'm hungry. Here's my cell, you guys figure out if you want to let these vehicles go for that and if you do, give me a call. See ya.

And then I walked out of the showroom and drove away. They were flipping out.

The phone rang before my steak was out of the kitchen.

I highly recomment Carmax. They don't play that stupid game. It's painless. You pick out some cars online, go down to the dealership and look around at the cars you picked, choose one, and proceed to paperwork. You won't need the above rules if you go to Carmax, most likely.

[protege]

While neither of the above situations are ideal, they are also not mechanical in nature, and I can live with them.

Same here. My first car, a '91 Tercel, had some similar issues. It ran well, but there were some cosmetic issues. The main ones, being a heavy scratch on the roof, a ding in the fender...and a leaking trunk. Someone had either backed into something, or the car had been in a minor shunt. Otherwise, the car was perfect. Well, other than I hadn't yet learned to drive a stick-shift Eventually, I had the roof scratch dealt with, and fixed the trunk myself. How? Well, I cut a piece of rubber seal off the (then-dead) MG's tailgate, and glued it over the Toyota seal. Worked perfectly, until the car was rear-ended in 2000. This time, the insurance company had the body shop fix it properly I ran that little car a few more months, then traded it in on a new car. Oh, I should mention that the car was a "base model" and had no radio at all. Took care of that pretty damn quick

Before I bought the Tercel, I came up with a list of requirements. I was looking for something less than 5 years old, had to be reliable (I was leaving for college soon, and didn't want to break down in the middle of nowhere), good on gas, had less than 50,000 miles on it, and relatively inexpensive. I looked at, and drove just about everything that fit into that group, over the course of several weeks.

Then one night, my parents got a call, saying that the local dealer had something he "thought I'd be interested in." Seems someone had traded in the Tercel for a new Neon (yeah, I know, Blas ), and the dealer was having trouble shifting it. A non-automatic, no A/C, no radio, two-door coupe that had some bodywork issues...can't understand why. Didn't help that the dealer wanted quite a bit more than such a car was worth In the end, they knocked off a grand or two from the price, and I drove it home. Take that!

Back on topic here, I second what Jester said about Carfax. Used cars are a bit of an unknown quantity. It's more difficult to hide past damage, but it still goes on...especially if you're buying from a private party. Body panels can be swapped, less-desirable models tarted-up to resemble high-end stuff (happens quite a bit in the classic-car world), and I'm sure odometer fraud still goes on. Take a mechanic along--let them go over the car, as well as drive it.

Also, don't be afraid to walk away. Don't settle for something you don't want, or even if the dealer is unwilling to negotiate. There are many dealers that will be happy to work with you.

I'm somewhat torn on the idea of trading in an old car. Sure, it'll bring down the overall cost...but can be more pain that it's worth. Too many dealers whine about how your old car isn't perfect, and will attempt to low-ball you on its value.

For example, when I got rid of my last car, I didn't care what I got for it. It had failed its state inspection twice and I'd already sunk a bit into trying to fix it. The car had to go, because I wasn't going to spend more on it. Some other sucker could fix it.

[Monica]

One thing I have learned with both cars that I have bought, is go to small 1 or 2 people dealerships. I have found that they are more willing to work with you and will do a lot to get the sell. I bought my 2 cars (4 years apart) from the same guy and it was hassle free. He even let me take the car for a few days just to see if I liked it.

[ApolloSZ]

Thanks for all the tips guys. Jester that list is awesome, and I'll definitely be doing the stuff you mentioned. I understand what you mean about not letting them know I'm desperate etc, that'd be essentially giving them my wallet.

Protege - As for trading in. The Territory dad has is in excellent condition, and uber low km's on the ODO (they are out of the country half a year, so it is driven very little) - He's had car yards admit they can't give him anything better for it, as their newer cars had higher km's.

As for buying private. I'm only going via Car Yards, as I said to dad, I'd rather be able to setup any warranties etc, instead of buying a used car from Joe Blogs, and having the engine seize the next day.

A/C isnt' such a big deal in NZ. And radio I'm happy with one that can tune in my little music player broadcaster thingy (Reads USB/SD Cards, transmits on FM Frequency)

Jester - When you mention the test drive, how do you mean "How it handles" vs "How it steers"? - Test driving I'll make sure dad comes with me. He was a driver in the Air Force, so does still know his stuff.

There is a site called Carjam I've used, it has things like basic service history etc, but I've been told key things to ask about are things like Cambelt changes aswell.

[AdminAssistant]

Yeah, if you buy used you might want a list of maintenance that's been done and/or maintenance that will need to be done soon. When Dad bought my car, he didn't check everything, and it turned out that it needed a nearly $200 belt replaced.

[Jester]

I'm somewhat torn on the idea of trading in an old car. Sure, it'll bring down the overall cost...but can be more pain that it's worth. Too many dealers whine about how your old car isn't perfect, and will attempt to low-ball you on its value.

Some dealers will, some won't. When I got the current Jestermobile, I had planned on not doing a trade-in and selling the old Jestermobile for about $1,000. While it ran great, there were some cosmetic and non-mechanical issues with it, and it had close to 200,000 miles on it. Also, it's blue book value was only a few hundred....I figured if I could get a grand for it, I'd be in good shape. Well, when the dealership that sold me the new Jestermobile offered me $900 if I traded in the old truck, I figured it was a great deal, and would save me the hassle of trying to sell the old one, and I might or might not get what I wanted for it from a private buyer.

Some dealers will lowball you, some won't. You have to know what you think your potential trade-in is worth. If dealers won't give you close to that amount in trade, you might want to consider selling it privately for what it's worth.

One thing I have learned with both cars that I have bought, is go to small 1 or 2 people dealerships. I have found that they are more willing to work with you and will do a lot to get the sell.

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. As with anything, it varies from establishment to establishment. I have had large dealerships try the damndest bullshit with me, and I have been treated well and respectfully by large dealerships. Ditto small ones. The major difference, and the advantage to large dealerships, is that they are going to have a larger pool of vehicles to offer you, and are going to be able to fix anything that might be wrong with it faster than a smaller dealership. But as always, you have to make your own decision. I would say shop around with no preconceived ideas about any dealers. Once they try to screw you, walk away, and go find someone that won't insult your intelligence.

Thanks for all the tips guys. Jester that list is awesome, and I'll definitely be doing the stuff you mentioned.

You're welcome. And I try.

I understand what you mean about not letting them know I'm desperate etc, that'd be essentially giving them my wallet.

More like your wallet, your pants, your belt, and potentially your underwear and socks. But they'll give you a used tie and tell you it's a fair trade!

As for buying private. I'm only going via Car Yards, as I said to dad, I'd rather be able to setup any warranties etc, instead of buying a used car from Joe Blogs, and having the engine seize the next day.

Keep in mind, with a lot of used cars, dealers will not offer you any warranty. Many if not most are going to be "buy as is." At least that's been my experience. Though many municipalities do have lemon laws, so if the thing is a total clunker, you may have legal recourse.

Jester - When you mention the test drive, how do you mean "How it handles" vs "How it steers"? - Test driving I'll make sure dad comes with me. He was a driver in the Air Force, so does still know his stuff.

Test drive the hell out of it. Don't just take it for a leisurely stroll. Accelerate normally. Accelerate HARD. Mash it. Brake normally. Brake hard. Panic break. Take turns normally. Take turns hard. Take turns very hard. Take turns slow. Take turns fast. Go to a parking lot and do all kinds of stuff with it, in all gears, forward and reverse.

I helped my niece test drive her current truck, and noticed things she may not have. Check the break feel. Do they feel mushy, or do you feel like you could stop on a dime and make change? Check the tires. Not just their inflation (though if they're low, it could indicate a leak), but their tread and treadwear as well. While the engine is running, check the exhaust. If it's a bluish gray or black, end the test drive, return the vehicle, and walk the fuck away. Rev the engine at idle. LISTEN to it. See if it sounds good, or rough, or skips beats. Better yet, if it's at all possible, have your mechanic or someone mechanically knowledgeable along for the test drive.

You will only have a little time with the vehicle during the test drive, so you absolutely need to put it through it's paces and test it under as many conceivable conditions as you can think of.

If they won't let you do this, hand them the keys, thank them, and walk the fuck away.

[Treasure]

oK, My to add to this, since you're taking your dad but no indication of how much of a mechanic he may be and everyone else is recommending you take one along -

take a rag with you.... clean, but old.

check the tail pipe - swipe the inside of it (before you even put key to ignition) with your finger - it should be dry/fine/powdery, and kinda grayish
if its black, thick, sticky, or wet.... move on - this is a sign that the engine burns oil - you will have issues with your car if that's the case.

Pop the hood:
check the oil level, and the transmission fluid level. look to see if there is evidence of spills/seepage/leakage

check the power steering line - have your dad turn on the car and turn the wheel left and right,

The rag, is to wipe your hands on after checking the tailpipe, and to make sure you're getting a clean reading from the "dip-stick" on the oil and transmission, and to help you when inspecting the lines - check all of them.... really.


Don't wear your "Sunday best" to buy a car in, nice jeans and shirt, but something you're going to be ok with getting dirty - cause if you inspect enough cars, and do so properly - you will end up dirty.

[Andara Bledin]

Depending on what the things are, of course. I would say if you have to get a car with 1 or 2 things to fix, make sure those things are non-mechanical.

I actually bought a car with a couple of notable mechanical issues. Then again, I also got a $5000 car for $3000, and then spent $800 on repairs for those and another completely unrelated issue. That Volvo was one of the best cars I ever had.

My current car was chosen for me by the loan agent. But I got lucky, and the only ways it isn't perfect for my needs are the extras that kicked the price into the range the loan agents were willing to work in.

I used to have a friend whose sister would research cars before she stepped foot into the dealership. Then she'd walk in, tell them which car she wanted, and how much she was going to pay, and ask them if it was a deal or not. And if it wasn't she'd walk right out and head to the next dealership. She'd usually have her car by the 2nd or 3rd. I know she did that for at least 3 cars before I lost track of the friend.

^-.-^