kosher stuff

[PepperElf]

So we can move the "what is and isn't kosher" discussion out of Moire's "minnie the mouse" thread.


And I found the answer to my own question over on wiki - if eggs & cheese are kosher together.

Yes. Eggs are apparently "pareve" (neither meat nor dairy) regardless of the fact that it came from an animal. Unless there's blood in it, which makes it non-kosher (depending on sect).

which also explains why mayo is kosher.

[thansal]

I had that conversation recently (I think it was after seeing a Jewish student aid eating chicken salad or something and questioning them about it), I just assumed that eggs were dairy, because I always think of them as such. Where Kosher only really cares about milk, and milk products, when it comes to Dairy, and meat has to be meat. It also lead to the fact that much of the "Mayo" out there is just emulsified vegetable oil anyway, and thus doesn't matter even further.

Here is my question:
Why is Sour Salt (aka Citric Acid) a Kosher/Jewish thing? I ask because I was looking for how to obtain some (truffle butter and citrus salt pop corn ftw), and learned that the cheapest way of buying it was to go to any store that caters to a decent sized Jewish population. Not exactly hard as I live in Queens, so now I have a nice big jar of Citric Acid, and would like to know more about it (Wiki failed me).

Side note: Just having a jar of that stuff is amazing, you can quickly add acid/citrus/brightness to just about anything with a tiny pinch of the stuff.

[KiaKat]

http://www.ok.org/Content.asp?ID=214

Citric acid is used in pickling and preserving, which a lot of traditionally Jewish preparations involve. I never thought about it being corn-based, though, and what that might mean for Passover, especially considering how much of the Seder meal tends to be pickled.

Pepper - pretty much everything is Pareve, unless there's contamination by meat or dairy. Then the classification is changed, as is the usage, and depending on the strictness one has when following Kashruth, even the storage is altered.

[PepperElf]

ya, i just didn't know if eggs counted as meat or not. (but apparently they don't).

[wolfie]

My understanding of "eggs are dairy" is that it's a supermarket thing, due to both of them needing similar handling, so they just get lumped together.

Is poultry considered meat, or pareve?

One thing that's a bit disturbing (my brother is a vegan) is that a lot of dark chocolate lists milk on the ingredients list (as opposed to the CYA "may contain traces of milk). Of course, that means the place to go shopping for non-milk dark chocolate is in a Jewish neighbourhood. After all, non-milk chocolate is pareve and can be served with either meat or dairy meals, while chocolate containing milk can only be served with dairy meals.

One thing I've heard about Kosher is that there's a general rule - if it's only a technicality keeping something from being trayf, disregard the technicality, it's still trayf. That shoots down the whole premise of "The R Strain", a story by Harry Turtledove. Synopsis: scientists use genetic engineering to create a variety of pig that chews its cud (ruminant, hence the name of the story) for more efficient use of feed (side effect being it's not cross-fertile with normal pigs). The altered genes are completely synthetic, rather than grafting cow genes (which would make it a hybrid, and inherently trayf). Scientists weren't prepared for one of the questions from the media - "does this mean it can produce kosher meat?" Given that general rule, if it looks like a pig, wallows in mud like a pig, and oinks like a pig, it's a pig.

[PepperElf]

yeah i've always noticed that "non-dairy creamer" is still "dairy kosher" so I always figured that would be a great tip-off for vegans.

and no eggs aren't "dairy" for kosher. They're pareve which pretty much means "neutral". Like how an apple isn't meat or dairy. You can have it with meat OR dairy. just not both at the same time


chicken: interesting article on that one here. It suggests that it use to *not* be considered meat the same way a cow or lamb is, but that today's society tends to lump it together as a meat item, that's why many people extend the "no meat/dairy" to chicken now too

[thansal]

My understanding of "eggs are dairy" is that it's a supermarket thing, due to both of them needing similar handling, so they just get lumped together.

Yup, that's why I just sorta always go "Eggs are Dairy", that and Ovo-Lacto vegetarians (of which I have a number of friends who are/were).

KiaKat, that's a good reasoning, thanks . I had assumed that Citric Acid was derived from citrus fruits, however that would make it rather ridiculously expensive...

[Dreamstalker]

I noticed that my store has a separate brand of spices in the kosher aisle (mainly for Passover IIRC). Is there such a thing as kosher and non-kosher spices?

[Rapscallion]

Interesting. Citric acid is usually produced from aspergillus niger, a fungus/mould that produces it as a by-product - or at least that's how I was taught in my preferred job at my current place of work. Maybe it grows on the corn? Will have to look into it.

Rapscallion

[thansal]

Interesting. Citric acid is usually produced from aspergillus niger, a fungus/mould that produces it as a by-product - or at least that's how I was taught in my preferred job at my current place of work. Maybe it grows on the corn? Will have to look into it.

Rapscallion

It's what sugar you use to feed to said mold, and in the states (And the rest of the world I assume) the cheapest sugar around is corn sugar.

My guess on the Kosher for passover spices are likely dodging the little things (anything that could leaven) that can often end up in mixtures, and to make sure that they aren't processed in a plant that that processes those as well.

[ComputerNecromancer]

My understanding of "eggs are dairy" is that it's a supermarket thing, due to both of them needing similar handling, so they just get lumped together.

Is poultry considered meat, or pareve?

One thing that's a bit disturbing (my brother is a vegan) is that a lot of dark chocolate lists milk on the ingredients list (as opposed to the CYA "may contain traces of milk). Of course, that means the place to go shopping for non-milk dark chocolate is in a Jewish neighbourhood. After all, non-milk chocolate is pareve and can be served with either meat or dairy meals, while chocolate containing milk can only be served with dairy meals.

One thing I've heard about Kosher is that there's a general rule - if it's only a technicality keeping something from being trayf, disregard the technicality, it's still trayf. That shoots down the whole premise of "The R Strain", a story by Harry Turtledove. Synopsis: scientists use genetic engineering to create a variety of pig that chews its cud (ruminant, hence the name of the story) for more efficient use of feed (side effect being it's not cross-fertile with normal pigs). The altered genes are completely synthetic, rather than grafting cow genes (which would make it a hybrid, and inherently trayf). Scientists weren't prepared for one of the questions from the media - "does this mean it can produce kosher meat?" Given that general rule, if it looks like a pig, wallows in mud like a pig, and oinks like a pig, it's a pig.

Actually, in the intro to that story in a collection, Turtledove recounted how he actually got hold of some rabbi and got reffered to others to eventually get a "Ok, if they did it that way, it'd be kosher." ruling. I suspect it was from Reform folks, not Orthodox, but Turtledove *did* do the research.

BTW, I think it was partially based on some pig like critter that *is* a ruminant and *has* been ruled kosher.

Reality could vary, but at least Turtledove didn't haul it out of his ass.

[Food Lady]

I had that conversation recently (I think it was after seeing a Jewish student aid eating chicken salad or something and questioning them about it), I just assumed that eggs were dairy, because I always think of them as such. Where Kosher only really cares about milk, and milk products, when it comes to Dairy, and meat has to be meat. It also lead to the fact that much of the "Mayo" out there is just emulsified vegetable oil anyway, and thus doesn't matter even further.

Here is my question:
Why is Sour Salt (aka Citric Acid) a Kosher/Jewish thing? I ask because I was looking for how to obtain some (truffle butter and citrus salt pop corn ftw), and learned that the cheapest way of buying it was to go to any store that caters to a decent sized Jewish population. Not exactly hard as I live in Queens, so now I have a nice big jar of Citric Acid, and would like to know more about it (Wiki failed me).

Side note: Just having a jar of that stuff is amazing, you can quickly add acid/citrus/brightness to just about anything with a tiny pinch of the stuff.

I make sour water out of it and use it with herbs as a hair rinse (seals the cuticle, corrects ph). I got a great deal online from a soapmaking supply. Of course, you probably won't use as much of it as me.

[lordlundar]

See, it's stuff like this is why I'm not Jewish.

[sms001]

Yes. Eggs are apparently "pareve" ....Unless there's blood in it, which makes it non-kosher ....

You mean blood in the eggs, or food items of all sorts? (Clarification - occasionally an egg will have some visible blood in it, does that mean that particular egg is non-kosher?)

See, it's stuff like this is why I'm not Jewish.

Yeah right? Makes understanding how Christianity got a foothold so much easier ---"JUST no meat on ONE particular day? That's easy, where do I sign up?*"

Oh, and thanks for this side track PE, this stuff is interesting.



(*Yes, I understand the historical nuances that make this untrue, but it amuses me.)

[ArcticChicken]

It's what sugar you use to feed to said mold, and in the states (And the rest of the world I assume) the cheapest sugar around is corn sugar.

Actually, the reason corn sugar is so cheap in the US is the corn subsidies. There are lots of places where cane sugar is cheaper.