Being Jerked Around

[MoonCat]

Jester, I suspect you may have just figured out why some guys complain so much about how "women don't really want nice guys." Because for some, being a "nice guy" means doing things for a woman with the ulterior motive of dating her/sleeping with her, and when she isn't interested, they get mad. Obviously, there's a difference between real "nice guys" and those who equate doing favors/helping out/giving unasked-for gifts with a way to get between the sheets eventually. And also, of course, some women are users, or really do prefer jerks to decent men, which is a whole other thread.

I agree with everything Seshat says, too. She's a very wise lady!

[Jester]

Oh no, MoonCat, I figured out that shit years ago. To a degree, I was one of those guys that in recent times have been denigrated as "nice guys," always with the sarcastic quotation marks around the phrase. I liked a girl, was a genuine friend to her, was nice to her, and then watched as she hooked up with, dated, or went back to some jerk. And I bitched about it to my friends, and whined about it to myself, and wallowed in self-pity. Always wondering why they didn't see me, the nice guy, as worthy of their romantic attention.

But there were some differences between nice guy Jester and these idiotic "nice guys" we're talking about. The most obvious being that I didn't use emotional blackmail to try to get with these girls. I didn't make ultimatums. And most importantly, I didn't base my friendship with them on trying to get in their pants. I liked them and I was friends with them because I liked them, for who they were, not for what they could do for me under the sheets. It was never a passive calculation of, "Oh hey, if I'm really nice to her, maybe she'll see what a great guy I am," or the more vile and more calculating "I'll be really nice to her and do all those things girls are always saying they want guys to do, and then she'll fuck me."

Also, as time went on, and as I observed more of the world, I realized that sometimes people just aren't interested in certain people, and it has nothing to do with how nice they are. It just is.

These idiots (and as I said, I was one of them for a while, at least to a degree) think, "Life isn't fair...*I* should be with her!"

The reality is that life ISN'T fair, shit happens to good people, often for no reason, and trying to apply immature whiney logic to romance is an exercise in futility.

Life isn't fair. That's a fact of life. So we can either whine about it and wallow in our misery, or we can sack up, take it head on, and deal with it as it happens, and try to find some happiness in all of it.

I took the second path years ago, because I was sick to death of letting myself allow other people to determine how happy or miserable I was. In short:

Life isn't fair. Deal.

[Dentarthurdent]

Thanks for all the advice, everybody. But I copied and pasted most of it to him and he just said that they're the only two people who understand the relationship and all the nuances of what's going on. Argh.

Also, they are in fact having sex, and he's been giving her money for various things, which puts this on a whole other level of dysfunctional. They're both my friends, but I think I'm going to butt out. I was asked for advice and had none that was any good, which is why I came to some of the wisest people I know. Thanks for your effort.

[Jester]

He's still a douche. But apparently so is she.

By the way, you gotta love people who ask for advice, then when they get advice, dismiss it all with a wave of the hand and the claim that "no one else understands."

Riiiiiiiight. Because no one else in the world has ever been there.


EDITED TO ADD: My comments above are all directed at Dent's idiot friend, not at Dent. Just in case anyone thought otherwise. I can't fault Dent for trying to help his friends, no matter how moronic those friends and their situation might be. Just goes to show that Dent's a far better person than either of those crotch monkeys.

[Dentarthurdent]

My comments above are all directed at Dent's idiot friend, not at Dent. Just in case anyone thought otherwise. I can't fault Dent for trying to help his friends, no matter how moronic those friends and their situation might be. Just goes to show that Dent's a far better person than either of those crotch monkeys.

Aaaw. Warm fuzzies. And I'm a she, btw.

[PepperElf]

Also, they are in fact having sex, and he's been giving her money for various things, which puts this on a whole other level of dysfunctional.

O boy. Yeah that would change things. If she's sleeping with your friend and then bringing a fuck-buddy home too.... that's an entirely different situation.

Although if anything the previous advice for him to get out of that arrangement is... perhaps even more poignant now. It sounds like she's a bit more open (or undecided) in her affections, and he's not so undecided and isn't keen on an open relationship.

But I also understand wanting to step away from it cos it sounds like he didn't tell you all of the details before asking for your help... which of course led us all to the wrong conclusions about him. And for him not liking the advice... Don't forget... you can take a horse to water but if it's set on drowning itself instead of just drinking, it's pretty hard to pull it back. Sometimes people have to learn by getting the heart broken.

[Jester]

Aaaw. Warm fuzzies. And I'm a she, btw.

Whoops! But that detail doesn't change any of what I said.

which of course led us all to the wrong conclusions about him.

I'm going to disagree slightly with you on this one, in that it led us to the wrong conclusions about HER, whereas it still seems (to me, anyways) that he needs to grow up, stop whining, and get the hell out of the situation. The reasons for that are slightly different than what we thought they were, but the end result seems to be the same.

[PepperElf]

good point. about her as well.

cos some of his behavior of course was still inexcusable. even if they were in a committed relationship he'd have no right to snoop her phone for example, unless she had already given him permission.

and yes the end results will probably be the same... or perhaps even worse.

[Jester]

If they were in a committed relationship, most of the onus for being a douchebag would fall on her. But from the OP, it sounds as if they are anything but.

Of course, if they were, as you said, the be result would still be Bad Shit.

[Oniontears]

So they were sleeping together, and even though she specifically told him she didn't consider it a relationship, he's upset because she isn't treating it like one?

Scratching my head over here.

[dalesys]

And I'm a she, btw.

Nope. You're a people, like all of us... claim to be.

[Sapphire Silk]

I'm going to disagree slightly with you on this one, in that it led us to the wrong conclusions about HER, whereas it still seems (to me, anyways) that he needs to grow up, stop whining, and get the hell out of the situation. The reasons for that are slightly different than what we thought they were, but the end result seems to be the same.

When you get into that kind of relationship, it is important to understand what the relationship is. That requires open communication on both ends; so she may be a bit sucky for not making her end of things clear.

It's the kind of situation where people end up taking advantage of one another, and setting up unreasonable expectations. It's the kind of thing that tends to blow up in ones face. I don't forsee a happy ending for either one of them.

[Pixilated]

Thanks for all the advice, everybody. But I copied and pasted most of it to him and he just said that they're the only two people who understand the relationship and all the nuances of what's going on. Argh.

Also, they are in fact having sex, and he's been giving her money for various things, which puts this on a whole other level of dysfunctional. They're both my friends, but I think I'm going to butt out. I was asked for advice and had none that was any good, which is why I came to some of the wisest people I know. Thanks for your effort.

1) As Jester said, yeah, nobody else understands because nooooobody else has ever been in this sort of situation. Okey-dokey.

2) Since it is a sexual relationship, yeah, that makes it an even bigger mess. And I'm afraid it sounds as if your friend thinks that, since he does favours for this girl and gives her money, the relationship should be running along the lines he wants. As she is proving, it's not necessarily gonna work like that.

3) I think you are wise to distance yourself from this. It is just going to get messier. If he comes back looking for advice, you can just tell him you gave him a ton of advice, he rejected all of it, and you've got nothing more to say on the matter.

*snip*
Don't forget... you can take a horse to water but if it's set on drowning itself instead of just drinking, it's pretty hard to pull it back. *snip*

Nice variation on that old saying!

[Seraph]

Thanks for all the advice, everybody. But I copied and pasted most of it to him and he just said that they're the only two people who understand the relationship and all the nuances of what's going on. Argh.

Also, they are in fact having sex, and he's been giving her money for various things, which puts this on a whole other level of dysfunctional. They're both my friends, but I think I'm going to butt out. I was asked for advice and had none that was any good, which is why I came to some of the wisest people I know. Thanks for your effort.

I'm going to have to agree that this whole situation looks extremely, extremely explosive. He's lied to you (wording the situation in a specific manner to obfuscate the truth is what it is -- lying), lied to her (if he's reading her texts - he's lying about being trustful).... this can only end in tears. The both of them sound fairly screwed up with all of this....

Just...I'm glad you said you are going to stay away, because holy mother of refried items, it sounds like this is going to meltdown.

[Seshat]

... holy mother of refried items? ....


IMO, the single most important part of a good relationship is open and honest communication - from all directions. ('relationship' here can mean anything from a monogamous couple, to a family with five children)

And yes, I quite understand that sometimes a person doesn't know what they want, or what their feelings are. In such cases, that person should (IMO, YMMV, etc etc) just bloody say so.

Dent, your friends aren't communicating. So to hypersimplify whatever advice I might have for them:

COMMUNICATE!