Suicide aftermath (hoping to get some advice)

[Peppergirl]

Hey all - I posted this last night over at fratching, and if anything I'm even *more* upset about it today, so I thought I'd post it over here too in order to get some advice.

Mods: if this isn't appropriate (posting in both places), please feel free to delete and accept my apology. Love you guys

Ok...

So the ex-husband of my ex-best-friend (I'll call him John) just found me on facebook a couple of weeks ago. I hadn't talked to him in about 6 years, which is about how long it's been since I've talked to her, but for totally different reasons.

Anyway, John and I always had a sort of 'love-hate' relationship. Butted heads alot, but really cared about each other and liked each other deep down. We always kinda fought like a brother and sister would have.

John's best friend committed suicide in '03, and I was very good friends with him as well. It's still a touchy subject with me. John and I were chatting on Yahoo last night and we got on the subject of the friend (lets call him Mike). Started with the funeral, (which is where John and I last saw each other) and progressed from there.

It's obvious John is still really hurting, and still really REALLY angry with Mike and I'm not sure how to handle it. It brought up alot of the old painful feelings that I felt during the aftermath of the suicide, and my hands were trembling and I started tearing up as we talked.

Anyone who knows me (even a little) knows I don't deal with emotional subjects well, so I abruptly shifted the conversation to something else. But now I feel badly. I feel like John and I are on the road to becoming friends again, and I feel like he really hasn't grieved all the way through. His comments were just awful. Just as bad as the day he did it. Yes, it's been six years - but the pain is still fresh, even for me - and I wasn't even a *tenth* as close to him as John was.

Any ideas on how to broach the subject? Or do I just shut up and forget it?

[ditchdj]

It's obvious John is still really hurting, and still really REALLY angry with Mike and I'm not sure how to handle it. It brought up alot of the old painful feelings that I felt during the aftermath of the suicide, and my hands were trembling and I started tearing up as we talked.

In those kind of situations, I've found that you have to take control of it or it will take control of you. When my brother had cirrhosis, brought on partially by heaving beer drinking, he decided he wasn't gonna change his ways because he had basically given up on himself and life. It eventually killed him. But, I realize that I could get really angry at him for doing that. But then I rationalized it by saying that anyone should ultimately have the right to decide for themselves whether or not they want to move on in life. It also would not have done any good to go against him. So I just decided that I would respect his wishes (not that I agreed with it mind you) and just said goodbye to him one last time and left it at that. We both last met on a good note and I feel that was the most important thing between me and him.

[Peppergirl]

Thanks, DDJ. And I'm very sorry for your loss. How old was he, if you don't mind my asking? My dad's youngest brother died of cirrhosis when he was 37, and it was really difficult on the entire family.

[Plaidman]

My mom's best friend's dad commited suicide. Even thirty+ years later, she still hasn't forgiven him. I don't know how or if she ever would. People heal differently. My best guess, just be honest with him. Tell him your sorry. You just don't deal with taht kind of stuff well. You understand he still angry, and hurt, and likely confused. Maybe even feels guilty (Which he shouldn't. When someone does that, its all on them, not their family, not their friends. I really want to stress that). But, you just don't want to talk about it. Its just as painful to you as to him.

Good Luck.

[Peppergirl]

Thanks Plaid. It really sort of came up by accident in the conversation. And he made some comment like "Here we are, over 6 years later and the SOB *still* is making his presence known".

So I responded..."Why are you calling him an SOB? You guys were like brothers"

After that it was ON. He wasn't mad at ME, per se - but he went on to say "Brothers don't do what he did. The stealing girls, the stupid fights...that's all forgivable. But a brother doesnt do what he did."

And I stupidly said "What did he do"

And he said "What do you mean WHAT DID HE DO? He blew his fucking brains out! Did you forget?"

Then this tangent went on for awhile. And when I changed the subject, he didn't fight me on it or seem to want to steer it back, but it's sticking with me and I don't know how to handle it.

I think you're probably right, though. I'll just kinda wait it out and see if he brings it up again.

[ditchdj]

Thanks, DDJ. And I'm very sorry for your loss. How old was he, if you don't mind my asking? My dad's youngest brother died of cirrhosis when he was 37, and it was really difficult on the entire family.

Thank you.

He was 48.

You know, I'd have to admit that seeing him die like that really made a big impression on myself. I only drink alcohol on the weekends or during special occasions, usually only beer. I also try to take better care of myself, things like draining the grease out of meat and working out in the gym. My brother brought himself to an untimely end because of bad choices he made in life. But I dont completely blame him. Like I told someone else on here a couple days ago, your body doesn't come with an owner's manual on how you should take care of yourself and live your life. Some screw up. Some don't. I just try to get what I can out of life and if my time comes then so be it.

[Rine]

My older sister attempted suicide about thirteen years ago. I was eleven or so. To be honest, I still haven't really forgiven her. Just thinking about it, thinking about what it did to my family, makes my blood just boil. Part of me says that it was incredibly selfish of her--do people who commit or try to commit suicide think about the people they leave behind? Sometimes I don't think they do. We never got an answer of why she tried it...she never gave any sign and that hurt too. It nearly destroyed my entire family and I still don't think to this day that she even realizes that! I really hated her for a long time, but we are "friends" now but bring up that subject and I stonewall it, I get so angry...ugh, it's awful. I'm trying to get over it but it's so hard.

Perhaps that is what is going on with your friend. He wants to know WHY...maybe he feels guilty for not being able to see the signs and help his friend. I know I felt guilty for some time and I know my parents did too..."Why couldn't we see? Why didn't we know?" I heard those questions a lot during that time.

I think the best thing to do is be honest and tell him what you are feeling, then listen. Let him rant and rave and be human. Maybe he doesn't have anyone to talk to that understands...just know that it might take a long time for him to recover. My sister didn't die, only attempted to do so, and thirteen years on, I'm still hurt and bitter about it...I can only imagine the pain he is going through.

[Peppergirl]

Thanks for the helpful advice. It's unfortunate because it seems like most everyone has been touched in some way by suicide.

I'll admit, I was really, REALLY mad at first. I couldn't even go up to the casket when I first arrived, because i was afraid I'd start screaming at him....not to mention it was an open casket for a self inflicted GSW, which was HORRIBLE of the funeral home to even consider. I'll leave the details alone on *that* little tidbit.

And there's some other backstory. Here goes: Mikes (the guy who killed himself) only brother committed suicide in 1998 and their father did the same thing in 1992. Same method. So he used to get all maudlin and talk about how he was going to carry on the family tradition and do it one day too, but we all just thought he was full of it. So yes, there's a guilt factor too that's making it worse.

And considering that they were best friends, I'm sure John has alot of guilt about that. Hell, even *I* have some guilt about it, and I wasnt nearly as close to Mike as John was.

[Plaidman]

....

We do think about the people that would be left behind. It does make it all that much harder to try. But sometimes, we also have twisted thoughts that we don't want YOU to see US suffer. Like my mom and sister? I didn't want to be a burden. I felt that I'll always be living at home. That I never would succuded and I be forced to live in their chairty. That I never get a GF, and feel my mom's pity and frequent prayer that she still does to help me find someone. Sometimes life's pain is just too damn great for us, and that while we know they'll be angry at us for a very, very long time, we rather them be mad at us, then feel sorry or guilty that they can't get us out of the misery we feel.

[HYHYBT]

it was an open casket for a self inflicted GSW, which was HORRIBLE of the funeral home to even consider.

One of my grandfathers shot himself, and they hid it very well; I wouldn't have known if I didn't already know.

And he was neither depressed nor sick, just scared of the future.

He did, in a sense, think about those he was leaving behind: finances and such were left in order, and he did it in the shower so Grandma wouldn't have to clean up a mess. The result, of course, was that she could never look at the bathroom again; we moved her out that same week.

[Flying Grype]

Depression is an illness and suicide is how you die of it. A friend of mine who once attempted suicide told me that when you're in that frame of mind you are by definition incapable of thinking logically. It's human nature to want to preserve your own life; when you want to end your life, your brain is very ill.

Being angry at someone who was in bad enough shape to kill themselves is like being angry at someone who died of cancer -- some people get over it, but some people die of it, and illness is nobody's 'fault' and not something that the sufferer can control (even if they're getting treatment for it).

I'm not saying this to be judgemental towards people who are angry, I just want to offer an alternate way of thinking about it or thinking about someone who did it.

That said, if your mutual friend is making you upset and angry with his anger, he needs to find a better outlet for it. He might want to see a shrink if he's still this angry this long afterwards, because habitual long-term anger isn't going to be good for his own mental health.

It's also completely within your rights and completely reasonable for you to say to him that you don't want to talk about it with him, if it stresses you out too much and if you think it's not a productive way of thinking for either of you.

[Peppergirl]

Thanks for the helpful advice everyone. I appreciate it.

And no, FG - I'm not insulted at all. I still feel some guilt about it, because he used to threaten it all the time and none of us believed him. I think that's where our mutual friend's anger is coming from still, truthfully. They were best friends and I think he still feels like he should have taken him more seriously. It's alot easier to feel anger than guilt, IMO.

[Seshat]

I survived depression for more than twenty years partly on thinking about the family and friends who would be surviving me. Then I realised that it's horribly selfish of them to make me persist living in such intense pain.

Now I live because my closest friends and family actually care about my pain, and care enough to work quite hard with the medical profession to minimise it. But other family, including my parents and brother, don't show any signs of actually believing me or caring about my pain. I won't keep myself alive for their sake, they don't show any signs of actually loving me, just a token daughter/sister that I represent.

If someone around you is depressed, they are in very real pain. They also most likely have a delusion (a very, very real mental belief) that they are worthless, and their existance is a burden on the people they love.

This combination of suffering and belief that they're a burden means that yes, they probably are thinking about the people who would survive them. They're genuinely believing they're making those peoples' lives easier by taking the burden of their care and support from them.

Depression is also often a hereditary illness, so Peppergirl, IF you had known that at the time, you would probably have seen the fact of your friends' father and grandfather having committed suicide as a major warning sign.

Important things for you to take away from this, Peppergirl:
1. Your friend who suicided did so from illness.
2. It's NOT YOUR FAULT. You didn't know the warning signs. His doctor should have taken action, but you and your friend didn't have the necessary information.
3. Your friend who is still angry is himself now mentally ill, and it's important that he get treatment for it.
4. Read the info I provided, and other info in this thread, and get mental health info from your doctor's office or the various mental health resources on the 'web. Learn warning signs, and 'mental health first aid'. That will ensure that next time you run into someone with this sort of problem, you'll be able to act appropriately.


Good luck.

[Plaidman]

I'm also thinking that maybe you or your friend (or both) should call hopeline. 1800-SUICIDE I believe? Just to talk to someone on the other side of the coin. That hotline isn't always for those who are contemplating suicide - its for anyone affected by it.

NO NO NO NO AND A THOUSAND TIMES NO. That number is fucking USELESS. Especally at night. You will be put on hold. For long time. I was on it, for nearly a half hour crying in tears as I hung in noose desperete for something. Thankfully the 911 operatior who connected it for me managed to calm me down and sent a police car to where I was seeing as no-one answered that hotline. If you need a crisis number, check out any hospitals. Alot of them will have 24 mental crisis hotline that do the same thing.

[Plaidman]

Its ok Mae. I know that several commericals, and places stress to call that number. its everywhere. It just in my experence, and others, it doesn't work. Especally at nighttime early morning.