Advice needed in matter of the heart

[FenigDurak]

Last September I canceled my wedding and moved out of my fiance's house. I won't get into the details of that break up as that is a long story, but know that my ex-fiance and I still care very deeply for each other and have continued to talk and hang out together, even go on dates. We have been talking through a lot of our issues and problems as a couple, trying to figure things out a bit. The wedding was scheduled for early this January.

Not too long after the break up in September (roughly in October), I suggested we see other people for a while as we figure things out.

The day after our wedding had been scheduled, we had a long talk about communication and honesty during which he mentioned that he was starting to see a girl who lived a bit south of us that he was starting to like. I asked if I knew her and he said no. I should point out here that the talk was more about my honesty as I tend to withhold information and tell white lies when I think the truth might hurt the other person (when in fact it only makes matters worse).

Over the last few days I've noticed some interesting wording on Facebook posts by a long time girlfriend of mine on my ex's wall. So I asked him last night when I came over if this was the girl he had been seeing. He confirmed that yes, they have been going out a bit.

Where I'm upset is that 1) he lied to me about knowing her and 2) neither of them came to me and asked if I was OK with a longtime friend of mine dating my ex and the only reason I'm being told now was because I'm going to the birthday party of the girl's 4-year old daughter this coming weekend.

I'm thinking of skipping the party entirely this weekend and my knee jerk reaction right now, after sleeping a night, is to be done with my ex entirely. Not to mention this friend. I'm not upset that he is seeing someone, and I'm only a tiny bit upset that it's a girl I know very well and have been friends with for longer than I've known my ex. What gets me the most angry is that I was lied to about it and that she didn't come to me to ask if I was OK with her dating my ex. We all belong to a local fan group that gets together very frequently and so now we will all have to see each other regardless of how things turn out. For the record, I met my ex outside of the group and brought him in as our relationship grew.

What do you guys think? Am I overreacting? Am I completely wrong in thinking that this friend should have asked me before dating the ex I am still close with? What are your thoughts?

[Rapscallion]

You'd broken up. You suggested you both see other people. He does, though he lied about who she was (whether you knew her or not).

Are you more angry with her or him? Not being an expert, I have to say that what I'm getting is that you're angry with him for lying, but because you've still got emotional attachment you're willing to forgive him and projecting it onto her.

What right do you have to say about who he dates? I'm curious about this. I'm not asking in a demanding tone of voice, though I know it could be taken as such. Are exes allowed to vet future squeezes of their recent ex-squeezes? Would it make any difference if it was someone you didn't know?

Rapscallion

[trailerparkmedic]

I think that it was wrong that your ex lied about you knowing who he was dating. Even if he didn't want to say who he was seeing at that point, he could have not lied. He could have said he wasn't comfortable discussing it with you at that time, or that you knew who it was but he didn't want to say who, or something along those lines.

With your friend, what did she know about your relationship? Did she think you had ended everything? Did she know that you and the ex were still working things out? Also, how close are you? Best friends or people who talk to each other occasionally? If she thought you had ended the relationship completely, I would have prefered that she say something but wouldn't be too pissed (especially if we weren't very close friends). In my circle of friends, when the relationship is over, both parties are fair game. If she knew that you and the ex were still working things out, I would be angry at her not saying anything. At that point, you are part of her relationship with the ex. Again, I'd be angrier the closer we were as friends.

[FenigDurak]

What it comes down to is that we're all in this group that sees each other pretty regularly. So I had done what I could to keep the details of my relationship/break-up/working things out with my ex out of the public eye.
There was one point where I was feeling increasingly isolated from everyone and this girl let me confide in her about everything and she told me that no matter what happened between my ex and I, she would be my friend.
I'm certainly angry with him for lying, and after posting this initially this morning I'm beginning to view him as persona non grata because of the fact that he has now dated a friend of mine.
I'm even more angry with her for knowing the details of my relationship and going out with him (the day after the wedding had been scheduled) anyway.
Raps, yes, it was easier when I thought it was someone I didn't know. At that point it was a faceless woman that I didn't know the little details of her life over the last decade. Now that I know it was someone I considered a close friend, who I could talk to about anything, it feels like a huge betrayal of trust.
I'm supposed to go over to my ex's house tonight so we can talk through this a bit. I have this sneaking suspicion though that this is that last straw, that little bit extra that finally ends things for me. I just don't have the room in my life for this kind of drama. Unfortunately it would also mean the end of that friendship.

[Rapscallion]

What it comes down to is that we're all in this group that sees each other pretty regularly. So I had done what I could to keep the details of my relationship/break-up/working things out with my ex out of the public eye.

Optimistic. Unlikely to ever happen in a group that meets regularly.

I'm certainly angry with him for lying, and after posting this initially this morning I'm beginning to view him as persona non grata because of the fact that he has now dated a friend of mine.

This is the important part for me. The lying thing I can go along with. However, you asked him initially if it was someone you knew, and you return to it in this post.

Raps, yes, it was easier when I thought it was someone I didn't know. At that point it was a faceless woman that I didn't know the little details of her life over the last decade. Now that I know it was someone I considered a close friend, who I could talk to about anything, it feels like a huge betrayal of trust.

I can understand your point a little more now. However, had it not been someone in whom you'd confided, but a more casual acquaintance, would your answer still be the same?

Can you blame them for keeping it quiet initially? Everyone I've known - when they feel a mutual attraction - kept it quiet initially to see how things worked out. Sure, those who were seeking others were open enough, often as a way to see if anyone else was prowling in that direction or to see if anyone thought they were making a mistake. If it was a mutual-attraction situation, though, keeping things quiet is normal.

I'm supposed to go over to my ex's house tonight so we can talk through this a bit. I have this sneaking suspicion though that this is that last straw, that little bit extra that finally ends things for me. I just don't have the room in my life for this kind of drama. Unfortunately it would also mean the end of that friendship.

At some point, you have to say, "Fuck you, I have enough friends." Only you can make that decision, though. I'll not make it for you. I'd restrict it to doing that for the lying, though. Anything else and it's your emotion clouding the issue.

Rapscallion

[FenigDurak]

After a rather long conversation tonight, I opted to take a huge step back from being in my Ex's life. Despite being upset with her, the girl is still my friend and they deserve a fair shot at this relationship. If it's going to succeed, great. If it's going to fail, it needs to do so on it's own merits. I don't want there to be any hint of a chance of blame for that falling on me.

Besides, I think it'll be better this way. I'm 5 months from finishing my degree and I don't need the extra drama.

[ArcticChicken]

I have been on the opposite side of this problem, although the strength of my relation ship with my ex was never as strong.

If my ex hadn't been on the opposite end of an internet connection when he told me my boyfriend should have asked his permission before dating me, I would have slapped him right then.

You DO NOT own your ex. NO ONE needs your permission to date him, even your friends.

On the other hand, it was really shitty of them to lie to you about it. Especially 'cause he lied to you about it during that particular conversation. If she knew you were hoping to work things out, then it was especially shitty of her, too.

You have every right to be angry with them about the lying, but you have no say in who they date.

[FenigDurak]

I'm not trying to suggest that I own my ex. It's more that my point was because of the depth of the relationship between him and I, and because that the girl had been deeply knowledgable of how it was moving along, it felt like a slap to the face to have them suddenly start seeing one another.
All I had wanted was for her to show some respect for the friendship we have and give me a heads up. I'd have given her a thumbs up and a thanks for helping prevent a really crappy situation. I mean, they started dating the day my wedding had been scheduled. Felt pretty harsh.

[Jester]

I am probably going to get raked over the coals for what I am about to say, but so be it.

You say one of the problems in your relationship was you withholding information (a form of lying) and telling white lies (another form of lying). Now, your version of white lies and mine may be different, but the fact is that yours was enough to become part of a conversation between you and your ex about your relationship.

It could be argued that you got what you deserved...a liar being lied to. That is a harsh conclusion, and one I don't necessarily subscribe to, but the fact remains that you are mad at your ex and your friend for doing what you yourself did....telling lies to spare someone else the pain of the truth. In my mind, you are not to blame, but you are also not completely innocent. In a way, you did bring this upon yourself.

That being said, your ex is a shitdog for dating one of your friends. I am assuming from your post that he knew that the girl was one of your friends. If he did not know, then he is less culpable. But methinks he knew full well, and therefore remains a shitdog.

Your friend is also a shitdog for dating your ex. She KNEW what the relationship was, she took up a spot as your confidante, and then she went after your man. These are not the acts of a friend.

There are people outside of this site and within it that will say that once the relationship was broken off, neither your ex nor your friend were obligated not to date one another. To this I say a hearty "Bullshit!"

I know I tend to see things in black and white, and I do NOT expect most people to adhere to my moral code, but I do not think it is too much to ask of people that they follow the general rule of my circle of friends: a friend's ex is Off Limits. Now, to me, that means Forever, but again, I don't expect anyone to follow my moral compass. But for a friend to date your ex, or an ex to date your friend, so soon after a breakup? Utter and complete bullshit. To lie about it merely compounds said bullshit.

I have said my piece. I think the closing argument should be in your own words....

...my knee jerk reaction right now, after sleeping a night, is to be done with my ex entirely. Not to mention this friend.

Now that I know it was someone I considered a close friend, who I could talk to about anything, it feels like a huge betrayal of trust.

After some reflection, you say this:

Despite being upset with her, the girl is still my friend and they deserve a fair shot at this relationship.

Sorry...but I don't see where "betrayal of trust" fits into "still my friend."

And while these two may well deserve a fair shot at a relationship together (something I don't necessarily agree with, mind you), I think it's fair to see that neither one deserves your friendship or your acceptance.

In short?

Fuck 'em both.

[Amina516]

Affairs of the heart are rarely black and white. So feel how you feel, and dont be ashamed.

I have to agree with most of what Jester says. No you dont "own your ex", but in reality, they both betrayed you. And regardless of what issues you had with your previous realtionship (i.e. the lying), its not right to do it back.

And in short....

Fuck 'em both.

[Flying Grype]

I'm going to put in a different two cents here.

Honestly, the big thing that's important here is timing. Were they seeing each other behind your back before you broke up? If not, they're both free people, there was no cheating or betrayal involved, and if they're attracted to each other they should be able to try it out.

If they kept it a secret, it's probably because they knew that it would be awkward for you, and doubly so because you're all friends and you all hang out together. That was caring on their part, even if their plan to keep it secret was a completely stupid plan that would never have worked.

If you're uncomfortable being around either of them, or both of them, it's probably because the wounds from the breakup are too fresh. They may not have thought of that aspect of it. If you still care for them both as friends, and they still care for you, then that will wear off, and you'll be able to be happy for them being happy. But it's too soon, and maybe you just need a break from them.

[blas]

I thought the Golden rule of friendships (both genders) was to NOT share bfs/gfs, NO sloppy seconds.

[Jester]

Flying Grype, you are a far better person than I am. Also less vindictive. And I commend you for that.

If it were me, the two people would be dead to me. Done, over, stick a fork in them. *shrug* But that's me. I've been told that I tend to hold a grudge.

[Peppergirl]

I'm with Jester and Amina.

Fuck 'em. They had no right to do that without talking to you first, at least.

The fact that they lied and/or hid it from you shows that they knew it would upset you.

Case in point: I recently casually dated a co-worker of my ex husband. Dan and I have been divorced for 6 years, and this guy actually went to Dan and asked him if he was okay with him asking me out for a drink.

While some of my friends thought this was crass and old fashioned, I actually appreciated it and so did my ex.

Granted, its been years since we'd divorced...but still - it was not hidden from him. If it had been a recent split, Dan would have been less-than-amused, and guess what? I wouldnt have blamed him!

I am appalled that your ex and your 'so called' friend were so insensitive to your feelings. Neither of them are your friends...trust me on this, okay? I've been through this and I've had some wine and...well, just trust me.

Okay - my buzzed ranting is over for the night. But again.

Fuck them!

[FenigDurak]

What a coincidence! My ex's name is Dan as well!

So the current situation is that I still have a few things at his house. My bed, a recliner, my desk and a few costumes. He and I agreed that I could leave the furniture there until I moved for Grad school this summer. Well, it turns out he's been sleeping with her on my bed. So yeah, I'm less than amused right now. I kinda want a new bed. I'm doing my best to take all of your advice and process it with everything that is going on, but it all happens so quickly and it's all so very fresh still. I really appreciate everyone's feedback.