My mother. (REALLY Long)

[Mishi]

I have a huge favour to ask all of you: Do you think that it is a good idea for me to cut all non-essential contact with my mother? My siblings are old enough and have the support network they need if she tries to take it out on them, and my dad is the only one I worry about her hurting over it.
Why am I asking for anonymous people's opinions on the internet? Well, my husband suggested it as he thinks he's too close to the situation to give unbiased advice. Although, you guys are only getting one side of the story so that makes any advice biased, there's no way I'm ever letting my mum know of this website's existence.

This past week she's been visiting us, and the kids and I have had gastro, so I REALLY appreciated her doing some of the housework so that I could concentrate on looking after the kids and getting better myself. On the (two) nights where I was too sick to provide adequate care, I sent the kids to their other grandmother as they were well enough, and my husband didn't think he could handle everything himself. Now I don't always get along with my M-I-L, but she's really good with the kids and they love her.

While I was too sick to protest my mother:
- Rearranged my lounge
- Rearranged my kitchen (ie. my meditation/sacred space, which I had informed her about)
- Cleaned out my laundry
- Made the kids feel bad for not meeting her standards (Which I stopped.)
- Told me that I'm not a proper Christian
- Kept trying to boss our dogs around.

So, I ignored the bad and I thought all this housework was an attempt to re-connect and re-build our rather rocky relationship. I said as much to my brother when he called and his response: "Um, Mishi, you're going to be angry but she's been saying to us that you're a really bad mum. I yelled at her because I think you're awesome, but it's only fair that you know." I was gutted.

This woman wasn't a proper mother to me, is mean to her grandkids and then has the gall to say that I'm a bad mum?

Background:
My mother was/is a fanatical 'Christian' intercessor, which means she:
- Homeschooled me until she got sick of arguing with me.
- Attempted to brainwash me with her beliefs (ie. demons are out to get me, Wiccans will try to slaughter me and pagans are worse).
- Fasted and locked herself in her room reading her Bible and praying, leaving me to watch two small children while attempting to get an education.
- Left bruises after 'disciplining' me for talking back (asking valid questions, disagreeing with her views or interpreting the Bible differently.)
- Will not back down from an argument until the other person is crying and admitting they are wrong, begging for forgiveness.
- Told me constantly that I'm silly, stupid, manipulative, selfish, jealous, petty, cruel, over-reacting and that she wasn't sure that keeping me had been a good idea.
- Told me everytime that I 'played up' that she would have me committed and that I wouldn't get out.
- Any day that was stressful, drank a bottle of wine and passed out on the couch in front of her kids. (She's a light-weight drinker, but it's still a bad example)
- Brought home strung-out druggies because that's what Jesus would do. (Yes, but I don't think He would have deliberately endangered children to show everyone how awesome He is.)
- Thinks I have had sex with every friend I have, regardless of gender.
- Thinks I'm in a poly relationship because my B-I-L lives with us, as he can't afford to live elsewhere on an apprentice wage.
- Taught me that if I dress in a certain way, I'm asking for trouble.
- Wiggling one's bum/hips while dancing is wrong.
- Pop culture is evil.
/Background

She is a lot more tolerant than she was, but she still believes that God speaks directly to her, that she can do hands-on healing, receives prophetic dreams and keeps trying to forcefully convert my munchkins. I find it offensive as my husband and I believe that religion should be a free choice. We'd like our kids to be like us, but they are very young individuals and I think she should respect that.

Is it any wonder that my parenting style is the opposite of hers?
I think I am a great mother! My kids have wonderful self-esteem/body image, great manners, find it easy to make friends so far, and are advanced in many developmental areas. My girls do have two weak areas, the eldest has a slight speech problem but the doctors aren't worried and she's getting better in leaps and bounds. Hell, she's mistaken for a short 6-7 year old with a lisp by most people! My youngest isn't keen on walking. She can do it, but she gets frustrated about not being fast enough. Also getting better with encouragement, and the doctors aren't worried. I help them to be polite, well-behaved, fun-loving, friendly children, which does mean that when they aren't listening and may hurt themselves or others I warn them, then smack them, but only lightly with an open hand on their bottom. I never talk down to them and I never make them cry with cruel words. JazzyBee is old enough to talk most things out and has a near eidectic memory, so she's a really easy, happy kid. Bubbles is also an easy-going, logical kid that is always happy. The trade-off is that my house is an easily cleanable mess sometimes, well, a lot of the time. Also, I may appear to be online a lot of the time, but that's because I tend to walk away from my computer and forget about it.

The worst bit - My mother is an occupational therapist, which means that despite all my history with her, deep down I wonder if she could be right. Although, with all the nonsense she has come up with about what's 'wrong' with the girls, I do question her professional capabilites.

Thanks to whoever manages to dredge through all this muck, and I'm very sorry for dumping it here. If it's inappropriate for this site, please move it to Fratching.

[Indigo]

My first question is what do you think is best for yourself, hubby, and the kids?

If your mother's behavior is adversely affecting your children and you it may be necessary to cut off non-essential contact with her.

Second question - if contact is continued, do you think her behavior may escalate towards you and the kids? How long are you willing to tolerate it before you say enough is enough?



The reason I ask is because my mother's incubator (as we call her) was highly abusive towards her while she was growing up. After my mom had us kids, she was willing to let bygones be bygones and let her see us kids. (No clue how she did that, she's a bigger woman than I am though)

Cue 16 years of her telling us kids that our mother was an unfit parent, trying to gain custody of us once when my older bro and I were babes; after I turned 16, telling my mother she was going to try again to take me and my younger bros; buying us things and telling us that our mom was horrible because she didn't buy us those things; taking us around relatives who were known child molesters and telling us not to tell Mom.

We moved to another state and didn't tell anyone and I have not had contact with her since then and I will never allow my future children near her. It took the second attempt at custody that made my mom finally leave. She couldn't afford the court battle and felt that she had given more than enough chances and she wasn't going to risk us anymore.

[Seshat]

Warning: my style in advice is sometimes a bit on the sarcastic-humour side. In spoken form, it's said lightly, and with a smile. Please assume that!

While I was too sick to protest my mother:
- Rearranged my lounge
- Rearranged my kitchen (ie. my meditation/sacred space, which I had informed her about)
- Cleaned out my laundry
- Made the kids feel bad for not meeting her standards (Which I stopped.)
- Told me that I'm not a proper Christian
- Kept trying to boss our dogs around.

The first three could be well meant, if annoying.
The last three are just plain rude. (Presuming that you want to be a 'proper Christian'.)

"Um, Mishi, you're going to be angry but she's been saying to us that you're a really bad mum. I yelled at her because I think you're awesome, but it's only fair that you know."

She's saying this behind your back; to your brother. What else is she saying behind your back?

- Attempted to brainwash me with her beliefs (ie. demons are out to get me, Wiccans will try to slaughter me and pagans are worse).
- Fasted and locked herself in her room reading her Bible and praying, leaving me to watch two small children while attempting to get an education.
- Left bruises after 'disciplining' me for talking back (asking valid questions, disagreeing with her views or interpreting the Bible differently.)
- Will not back down from an argument until the other person is crying and admitting they are wrong, begging for forgiveness.
- Told me constantly that I'm silly, stupid, manipulative, selfish, jealous, petty, cruel, over-reacting and that she wasn't sure that keeping me had been a good idea.
- Told me everytime that I 'played up' that she would have me committed and that I wouldn't get out.
- Any day that was stressful, drank a bottle of wine and passed out on the couch in front of her kids. (She's a light-weight drinker, but it's still a bad example)
- Brought home strung-out druggies because that's what Jesus would do. (Yes, but I don't think He would have deliberately endangered children to show everyone how awesome He is.)
- Thinks I have had sex with every friend I have, regardless of gender.
- Thinks I'm in a poly relationship because my B-I-L lives with us, as he can't afford to live elsewhere on an apprentice wage.
- Taught me that if I dress in a certain way, I'm asking for trouble.
- Wiggling one's bum/hips while dancing is wrong.
- Pop culture is evil.

Do you want this done to your children?

Actually, in the case of neglect, emotional abuse, and of beating you to bruising, that's child abuse.

Leaving the children in her care (in the care of someone with a history of abuse) could be deemed abuse on YOUR part. I suggest getting advice from the police, at minimum, in that regard.
In the meantime, never leave the children in her care - make sure that the person caring for them when she's in the house knows she's not to have sole care of them no matter what.

(PS: what's wrong with being thought to be in a poly relationship? )

and keeps trying to forcefully convert my munchkins

Do you want that for your children?

The trade-off is that my house is an easily cleanable mess sometimes, well, a lot of the time.

Shock! Horror! News at Eleven! A house with children in it is not a perfect Home Beautiful photo shoot at all times!

Ahem. Mess is normal.

Is the place kept to a decent standard of hygiene? Are the kids protected from knives, household chemicals, old food scraps, and other hazards?

Then you're fine.

The kids have problems? Shock! Horror! News at Eleven!

Their doctor is aware of it, keeping track of it, you and the doctor and potentially teachers/etc are working on it. You're fine.

The worst bit - My mother is an occupational therapist, which means that despite all my history with her, deep down I wonder if she could be right.

Gee. My occupational therapists never told me they're God.

Your mother is not Inherently Right. It doesn't matter what profession she has, or what she taught you as she was raising you. She's a person. She's fallible. She doesn't have all the information - and she doesn't have the right to decide how you raise your children.


You have the right - even the responsibility - to set boundaries. You get to tell her 'you may/may not do these things with the children'.

If she fails to respect those boundaries, you have the right - even the responsibility - to protect your children from her.

I'm an aunt. I love my niece and nephew. And I disagree with some of the things their parents are doing. But since their parents are not actually doing anything harmful, I'll respect their decisions and keep my silence - at least until the kids are adult. Your mother - in my opinion - should be doing the same.

Oh, sure, once the kids are adult, I'll give them the info to make their own adult decisions about the issues where I disagree with my brother. Adults are fair game! But the kids are NOT mine to raise; unless they're actually in danger.


Annnnyway: the point is that you have many reasons to restrict her access to your children and to lay firm boundaries with her. Put those boundaries in place.

If she respects the boundaries, and you have reason to believe she is not going to be emotionally, physically or neglectfully abusive to the children, then cautiously relax your supervision.

If not, supervise all visits. And if necessary, cut off ties.


Because of the history of abuse and neglect, I would DEFINITELY be getting professional advice. Talk to police, talk to your doctor! In fact, your doctor may be a great resource.
Make sure he knows this is a prevention thing - he's a mandatory reporter (ie, if he suspects current abuse, he has to report it) - so you don't want him getting the idea this is a current problem. But he's probably got access to all the resources you need, and contact numbers for people who can help you assess the risks and how recovered your mother truly is.


I think your biggest decision here is going to be the safety of your children. Get professional help, and keep them safe.

[Mishi]

The one thing I don't worry about is her getting custody of the kids, it does sound like something she'd try to do though. Somewhat unwittingly I managed to marry into a family that is both well connected and very adept at court battles. They are a good family despite my M-I-L being a pain, at least she's a well-meaning pain

Also I don't have any problems with poly relationships, it's the just way that she says it that gets under my skin. That's why my brother in law, my husband and their mates tend to camp it up when my family visit.

One of the first rules Hubby and I made before we had kids: My Mother is to never be left alone with them... EVER!

Hubby actually got angry with her because she moved the knives to where the kids could get to them and left cleaning chemicals within the kids reach.

@Indigo: My paternal grandmother was like that, I hated her with a passion and still do even though she's been dead for 12 years. I don't want my kids to hate my mother, which is why I let her be around the kids. She had seemed to mellow a lot, but now with some of the things she said to my siblings and my dad, I don't want her damaging my kids.

Thanks guys, I was worried that it was an over the top knee-jerk reaction, but re-reading what I wrote and your answers reminds me why I moved out as soon as I could.

[iradney]

Listen to your instincts - they're flashing red emergency lights for a reason. Your Mom doesn't sound like the type of person I would want around my hypothetical children no matter their age, to be honest. The fact that she rearranged your kitchen and made it potentially dangerous for your kids is a big no-no in my book...

[r2cagle]

Echoing same advice, Mishi... you know what you have to do. Sorry, it sucks, but it won't ever get better. You can tolerate your mom in small doses, but your children do not have the skills yet to deal with her. If when the kids get older, they want to connect with your mom, then allow them that choice, but right now, it's about protecting your family.

Oh, and tell Hubby, he can handle everything, it doesn't have to be perfect.

[Soulstealer]

If this was my mother I wouldn't let her have any contact with my kids. She's clearly not a good role model and kids can tell when they're not wanted or considered a nuisance.

Hell, I'd be tempted not to see her again until she's being lowered into the ground. I say this has someone who has cut their mother for this type of thing albeit I think yours sounds more severe. If you want to keep her around you set strong boundaries not to allow her to hurt your kids, mess with your house, and especially not to mess with you. No one has the right to make you feel bad about yourself.

[Mishi]

A little more to add... emailed my sister to find out if my brother was lying to make trouble, my mum made her read it out and dictated an answer! Sister will be filling me in from her boyfriend's place but RARRRGH!!!!

[trailerparkmedic]

Mishi, the manipulative behavior your mother is showing is why my fiance and I have cut all contact with his mother to a minimum. We don't even have kids, but she is so toxic and draining we just can't deal with her. We still talk to her (fairly rarely) and she's coming to our wedding but we'll travel to Dallas (4 hours away) for whatever reason, rearrange our schedule to see his dad, and not even tell his mom we've been there. We're relishing the thought of moving to the east coast before we have kids so that she can't easily visit. We don't regret mostly cutting her off at all.

[Exaspera]

You could always draw a line down the middle of a piece of paper and note the pros and cons. Let the list help you to make your decision.

My Mom is an OTR, too. Not that that makes a good or bad Mother, but we get along wonderfully.

[taxguykarl]

Mishi, the manipulative behavior your mother is showing is why my fiance and I have cut all contact with his mother to a minimum. We don't even have kids, but she is so toxic and draining we just can't deal with her. We still talk to her (fairly rarely) and she's coming to our wedding but we'll travel to Dallas (4 hours away) for whatever reason, rearrange our schedule to see his dad, and not even tell his mom we've been there. We're relishing the thought of moving to the east coast before we have kids so that she can't easily visit. We don't regret mostly cutting her off at all.

TPM, you could well be talking about my MIL.
I have encouraged Mrs. TGK to keep contact to a minimum for just that reason.
One of the best gifts I ever gave her (and my BIL, come to think of it) was a copy of In Sheeps' Clothing: Understanding and Dealing with Manipulative People. Dr. Simon has MIL pegged.

This would also be a good read for you, Mishi. FWIW, I too suggest minimizing contact with your mother and no unsupervised visits.

[Magpie]

If it helps: My in-laws are very careful how they interact with their respective fathers. (Yes, both of them. People tend to marry into families with similar levels of emotional health). I have seen my husband's paternal grandfather maybe 5 times. Abusive relatives need to be cut off. Yes, it's good to maintain contact with carefully defined boundaries. But if you can't do that then go for no contact, rather than contact without boundaries. It's for your children's safety. Not only is your Mother a potential danger to them, but if you cut ties you will pick up less of her behaviour.

And I want to ditto what Seshat said, just to put more support behind those.

[Amethyst Hunter]

Background:
My mother was/is a fanatical 'Christian' intercessor, which means she:
- Homeschooled me until she got sick of arguing with me.
- Attempted to brainwash me with her beliefs (ie. demons are out to get me, Wiccans will try to slaughter me and pagans are worse).
- Fasted and locked herself in her room reading her Bible and praying, leaving me to watch two small children while attempting to get an education.
- Left bruises after 'disciplining' me for talking back (asking valid questions, disagreeing with her views or interpreting the Bible differently.)
- Pop culture is evil.
/Background

Is your mother dominionist? (See www.theocracywatch.org for more information, if you've never heard this term before.)

I ask because many of the red flags you listed are CLASSIC dominionist tactics, particularly the homeschooling, fasting, beatings and crusade against pop culture. (Yes, all hardline religious sects take the view that anything secular is automatically 'satanic' but dominionists take it to a whole 'nother level, to the point where they literally have been creating their own separate culture, complete with dominionist-friendly schools, doctors, churches and businesses, for two reasons: 1) they want to raise kids from birth in this toxic environment (harder to escape it if it's all you've ever known) and 2) prepare these kids to go into secular institutions for the express purpose of taking over and eventually controlling these institutions - school, law, government, etc. This is commonly referred to as "steeplejacking" as a good many dominionists start with churches and work their way up from there.)

Even without the dominionist red-flagging, the manipulativeness and flagrant disregard for your home/kids is very toxic to your family. So in answer to your question...

I have a huge favour to ask all of you: Do you think that it is a good idea for me to cut all non-essential contact with my mother?

HELL. YES. In fact I would even go so far as to say cut her off completely, but that's just me so take that with a huge grain of salt. One of my friends is a walkaway from a dominionist family and to this day only maintains the barest minimum of contact with her family because of their toxicity. She is legally blind in one eye because her mother - a diehard dominionist - refused to see a legitimate doctor since she believes that modern medicine is a Satanic tool. So ask yourself: if your own mother subscribes to a similar train of thought, do you REALLY want to risk your kids' health and well-being with her?

[Mishi]

Today I found out that she had told my sister that:

- My house is so messy that she wanted to call Family and Children's Services (I would post pictures of my home's interior, but that would kind of get rid of my anonymity)

- I apparently have mental issues and need to seek help!

So, now she's all but blocked from my Facebook page (deleting her would cause a hell of a fuss.) and I'm not going to be talking to her for quite some time. Thank God for Caller ID! I just wish that it hadn't had to come to this, all I wanted was a decent relationship with a loving mother.

@Amethyst Hunter - Yup sounds familiar; they were/are also into 'breaking demonic strongholds' and building a network of Christian professionals. Apparently, in the End Times, Christians will have all non-Christians as slaves... still haven't found that verse and I'm wondering where I pick my slaves up from!

[Magpie]

Apparently, in the End Times, Christians will have all non-Christians as slaves... still haven't found that verse and I'm wondering where I pick my slaves up from!

I've got some bad news for you:

- Told me that I'm not a proper Christian

But in all seriousness, I realise that I didn't explicitly say in my earlier post that no, your mother is the one who's out of line. Yes, I know you're biased, but unless you're lying through your teeth, she is exhibiting major problems in her behaviour.