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**Aethian** · 06-18-2010, 12:36 AM

Become your own boss. Find something you like to do and find a niche in that market.

Other then that I really don't know, I wish I could help but...I don't see when you've been rude. *args and just snugs hard*

**Magpie** · 06-18-2010, 12:41 AM

Ok, I know that you say that you don't have Asperger's, but that's not reason not to proceed as if you did. They're behaviour based diagnoses, and the treatment is behavioural. If you're exhibiting one symptom, treat it!

I did social coaching for a while, and it really helped. We'd discuss things that I screwed up in interacting with people, and reasons why I might have been perceived negatively, and we'd do role play. We worked on me becoming more aware. I don't know what you have in the way of coverage, but there ARE actually classes like what you're looking for.

One other suggestion is to try to find jobs where you can get away with this sort of thing. I know, more Autistic spectrum advice, but it's all I can think of. You're in a field where, frankly, they really oughtn't be expecting a lot in the way of social skills, at least based on the people I know in that field. So a little bit of improvement should go a long way. See if you can find a friend who will be honest with you who's able to see what might be a problem. A lot of fixes are crude, but if you just appear odd you can probably get away with it.

Another suggestion that I'm scared to try myself, but depending on how good your skills are, you might try taking conflict resolution courses. They have a lot of information on what comes across as aggressive/pushy so that you can avoid it.

**Mishi** · 06-18-2010, 01:07 AM

I don't see where you've been rude either, but I've been referred to as an odd mixture of diplomacy and bluntness.

Sorry, I have no suggestions other than listen to Magpie, Aethien and Seshat (if/when she comments) because they give really good advice. Also

for dealing with PPD/PPA, you're a very brave mum.

**Solumina** · 06-18-2010, 03:44 AM

There are business etiquette classes which may benefit you more than a typical “southern” style etiquette class, which it sounds like you had. It is pretty darn hard to see what the problem is without direct observation so I’m not really sure what else to say.

**Seshat** · 06-18-2010, 10:45 AM

Quoth Mishi View Post

Sorry, I have no suggestions other than listen to Magpie, Aethien and Seshat (if/when she comments) because they give really good advice.

Actually, I was going to say that I have the same problem. I've apparently partly overcome it, though I have no real idea how: the stuff I have in my sig is what I used consciously when I was working on changing it.

Other things I did:
Studied (and I mean STUDIED) Animal Planet and National Geographic specials on monkeys, and especially apes. Watched behaviour and interaction there, and listened to the narrator interpreting it. Hominid behaviour is human behaviour, just written more primitively and clearly.

Learned about microexpressions and did some work on recognising them.

Learned about the facial action coding system and the related affect interpretation dictionary

Studied body language in general.

Once you have those basic tools, you can then spend time sitting in a public place with a cup of coffee, watching people and trying to interpret their body language and behaviour towards each other, trying to predict what each cluster of people will do next and how they like/dislike each other.

**Der Cute** · 06-18-2010, 09:18 PM

2. If you're consistently getting results you don't want, change what you do.

This is great - I am trying to change the stuff. Problem I can see is that this behavior is so entrenched in me, it's like trying to pull my stomach out through my nose.

I am afraid that I'll not be able to use my computer degree. The entry level work is desktop support/helpdesk, which is direct customer contact. I can't do this. Even if I changed my IT training to, lets say, DBA, I would still have to work with people, and that would still result in the same problem.
When corresponding or communicating via email or phone, I do pretty good. I have the time to think the speech through, to 'try to see consequences' of a sentence, and on the phone I know to keep mouth smiling and calm.
But when around humans....I fuck up.

I will try what Seshat suggested, and work with my therapist and see what we can do.

I just feel despondent and ubersad that my degree is shite.

Cutenoob

**Pony_Boy** · 06-18-2010, 09:48 PM

Question: Does this only happen in an office/professional setting?

How are you in other social situations, like meeting new people, making small talk etc? If it just happens at work, or more often then not at work, could it be the professional atmosphere that triggers something in you and not some all encompassing mental condition?

Just a thought i had...

**Seshat** · 06-19-2010, 01:27 AM

Quoth Cutenoob View Post

2. If you're consistently getting results you don't want, change what you do.

This is great - I am trying to change the stuff. Problem I can see is that this behavior is so entrenched in me, it's like trying to pull my stomach out through my nose.

I will try what Seshat suggested, and work with my therapist and see what we can do.

Cutenoob, two things:

1. I know. BELIEVE ME I KNOW. It took me twenty years to get from constantly stuffing up social interactions to now. The good side is that it takes much less than twenty years to show enough improvement to hold down a job.

2. Go to a Linux user group meeting or ten, and talk to the sysadmins. You may well find a senior sysadmin who needs a junior to train, and is happy to ignore ADHD/'classic geek' behaviours in his juniors so long as the junior is trying.

Ignore the showoffs and wannabes. You're looking for the geeks of quiet confidence, who are most likely off in one corner discussing something hopelessly esoteric; and who are studying from each other. As in, one of them studies network trafficking algorithms and passes that knowledge on this week. Another studies current best practice spam filtering and passes that on next week, the third studies...

These are the people who know that there's too much in their field for everyone to reinvent the wheel, and they want to give their employers good service and do their jobs right, so they cooperate with their so-called 'competition'.

They also pass on jobs to each other, and seek to train up the next generation of high quality sysadmins. And THESE are the geeks you want to know. When you find them - and they'll probably be at the linux users group meeting, but they might be somewhere else - talk with them, and tell them your problem and your goal, and ask their help.

Heck, show them a printout of this suggestion.

Note that they'll probably expect you to train up to being a senior sysadmin yourself. Since this is your goal, that's not a problem! However, part of being senior sysadmin is being the shield between management and your juniors. So expect to be taught office politics and human interaction.

But you'll be being taught either by a geek, or by someone accustomed to working with geeks. It'll be a HELL of a lot easier than being taught by someone expecting you to be a neurotypical.

Good luck.

If you're able to move to southern Australia, I can hook you into that geek network. But probably you'll have to find them yourself.

**Der Cute** · 06-19-2010, 02:14 AM

Pony Boy is right, though.

It DOES happen in office/professional settings.

Last year, I worked as a field tech, leading up to 6 ppl per day, in a repetitive but problem solving situation. Had to do a rollout for hardware. Every building was different, every person was different; but being LEAD was better for me, I was able to direct, make choices, be responsible for things and achieve ....I liked this, no, I loved it.

The job I just lost, I was told it was field tech, but turns out it's more desktop support.

Offices are very very hard for me. Politics are ebil; facial recognition and being able to come up with an answer in short time (or else they think i'm stupid/weird/cant' do it) is hard.

Seshat; I don't think I'd be a good Linux admin

I love Windows more. I would like to be more admin than direct cust contact, but I have not found a job that lets you in like that.

Cutenoob

**Whiskey** · 06-19-2010, 02:21 AM

I have issues verbalizing my problems when I'm in a room with my psych. I started, throughout the week, writing down random issues I had. Everything from the trivial to the end of the world stuff. Then I take that to my doc, go down the list, and see what happens. Some of it is irrelevant, some of it isnt. Sometimes the irrelevant stuff ties into the relevant stuff as a pattern of behavior.

I've dealt with the whole "pushy" "rude" labels. A lot of it (for me) has to do with body language. I stand very defensively and when I'm focusing on what someone says, I tend to scowl. So where I'm listening intently and taking in what someone says so I can better myself, I look like I'm being dismissive and angry.

**Seshat** · 06-19-2010, 11:29 AM

Quoth Cutenoob View Post

Seshat; I don't think I'd be a good Linux admin

I love Windows more. I would like to be more admin than direct cust contact, but I have not found a job that lets you in like that.

Look for the equivalent people in Windows system administration?

I know they exist in POSIX-based systems because I know them (and am married to one). I presume they're also in the Windows world.

Oooh, Whiskey. Me too. Or at least, until I started forcing myself to either do otherwise, or explain myself. And if I explain myself, it's very brief. "Don't mind me, I'm just concentrating. You were talking about X - please go on." Very briefly implying that my scowly-face is concentration, and reflecting their words back to them to prove that I'm listening.

It doesn't work all the time, but often I get people finishing their piece, then asking what it is with the face. I briefly mention that "I think I'm an undiagnosed Aspie. The 'geek' thing, you've heard of it? Yeah. My brain doesn't do social instinctively like most peoples', so when I'm concentrating on what you're saying and not how I look, I ... well, I look like whatever I did just then."

It often makes people a bit happier about me being a bit 'weird', as long as I make an effort to seem 'normal' most of the time. They're a bit more cool with my 'weird' expressions when I'm focussed and concentrating, 'cause hey, I'm clearly working - I'm not paying attention to my face!

**Magpie** · 06-19-2010, 06:49 PM

A couple of more things I thought of.

Is there anything consistent about the jobs you've held longest? It might be that there's a field that you're so good in that they'll ignore any other oddities. Also, it might be a field where they're used to people being "rude" and "pushy".

And some concrete tips for behaviour: make sure that you're paying attention to the other person. It's hard to describe what I'm trying to say here, but instead of looking at conversations as a way to communicate information, try to see them as relationship builders. Even at work. (Unless you get really really good at this very quickly

). Based on what happens to me, which I fully acknowledge might be completely different from what happens to you, I wonder if your problem is that you're going up to co-workers (to use your example) with the intention of telling them to drop by when they have time. That is your only purpose, and when you get to there you say it as soon as possible. Once you've said it, you're done, and you need to get back to work ASAP.

What I found helped with the above difficulty was to focus on the person, not on what they're saying. I know it's subtle, but for me, when I focus on what the person is saying, it's about the information. And I no longer have the patience to hear them out once I know what they're going to say, or once it's just being social (which is important in its own way even at work). The other trick, although it's harder to remember to do, is to make sure that you take your time, and give the other person time to say something. I'm going to parse your example, but I had to take it fairly literally, you might already be doing this.

Rather than walking up to them and saying "Hey, if you've got time later around lunch, can you grab me? I need to do some more tweaking/changing on the machine here, and we can set up other things you need too.", split it up.

"Hey"
(wait, at the least, for them to look up, give them a chance to say something. At many work places a small amount of social conversation 2-3 exchanges is called for here)
"I'm doing a bit of teaking/changing on the machine here."
(optional pause, but whether or not you take it, watch for cues that they want to say something, and give them a chance to)
"If you've got time later around lunch could you grab me? We can work on that and maybe set up other things you need"
(closing social amenities)

The difference here is that instead of you going and just sending them a message, you've given them a chance to give input, and you're relating to them. Please don't take the above too literally. While my Asperger's means I'm aware of this stuff at a more conscious level, it also means I have odd views of how things work occasionally.

And I apologise if this isn't at all a problem you have, it's just my only take on things. And sometimes it won't work - it's a lot harder to fake normal social functioning in difficult situations. I can interact just fine with people who have good social functioning. I can handle normal situations better than a lot of other people can. I just break down really really fast when it gets outside of what I know, or if the other person is acting oddly. The above is to illustrate how coping mechanisms are only good for so much.

**Der Cute** · 06-19-2010, 09:22 PM

Quoth Magpie View Post

Rather than walking up to them and saying "Hey, if you've got time later around lunch, can you grab me? I need to do some more tweaking/changing on the machine here, and we can set up other things you need too.", split it up.

"Hey"
(wait, at the least, for them to look up, give them a chance to say something. At many work places a small amount of social conversation 2-3 exchanges is called for here)
"I'm doing a bit of teaking/changing on the machine here."
(optional pause, but whether or not you take it, watch for cues that they want to say something, and give them a chance to)
"If you've got time later around lunch could you grab me? We can work on that and maybe set up other things you need"
(closing social amenities)

The difference here is that instead of you going and just sending them a message, you've given them a chance to give input, and you're relating to them.

Mag, this is exactly what I'm needing. I need a breakdown of whats bad when I do it, and a better way to do it in future. People telling me "don't be pushy" doesn't do diddly, since I need a better example.

I think (am not sure) that my anxiety, and fear of fucking up magnifies when around people, and that I start talkingreallyquicklyandtrytogetitoutinonebreath.
Instead of Inhale, speak, them speak, inhale me speak...

Now that you've outlined the right steps for the dance, I can practice this.

When I talk to someone I know and trust, the anx goes away and I can be calm/collected/flow back and forth. But if I'm around new people, the trust in me doesn't work, and therefore I start goingwaytoofastand such.

Thanks. More input?

It's hard to keep eye contact. I keep ducking and looking away/breaking it. I'm uncomfortable, but is that sending a "I think you suck" sign? Or is it "I don't like you"

C

**Solumina** · 06-19-2010, 10:33 PM

You don't need to look right into someones eyes but if you don't look at them at all it can send the wrong message. A quick glance is generally all that you need as long as there is a friendly facial expression to go with it, which gives the message that you are paying attention to them but that you need to focus on other things too, if you just glance up and then right back to work with no smile or anything then it gives the impression that you don't think they are important enough for you to pay attention to. Also if you do want to give the impression of actually looking someone in the eye but don't feel comfortable then look right between their eyebrows, to them it will look the same but it should be much easier for you.

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