How do I get this across?

[Lindsey]

My boyfriend and I have been living together for a year and a half and last week we had our first real argument - although I don't even know if I can call it an argument, because he agreed with everything I said and apologized a lot, he didn't really argue with me at all. We're 20 years old and sophomores in college, and our backgrounds vary quite a bit. I've been financially independent since I was 16 and can handle myself in the adult world, while he's never learned to be an adult yet.

Last year when we decided to live together officially (I'd already been living in his dorm room unofficially for 6 months), he called his parents to tell them and their answer was flat out no. Instead of arguing with them about it, he hung up the phone, told me "I wish there was something we could do" and cried with me. A week later, his parents changed his mind and told him he could live with me. If they hadn't spontaneously changed their mind, I wouldn't be living with him.

This year I spent Thanksgiving vacation at his parents' house and his mom offered to drive us back to school. We went to a diner for a break halfway through the drive, and while we ate, he asked his mom if I could come home for winter break with him since I would be alone for the entire month and the holiday otherwise. She said no, and he nodded and ended the conversation. I was sitting right next to him and he didn't say a single word -- didn't tell her I'd be alone, didn't fight for me at all, just accepted what his mom told him. I spent the rest of the car ride pretending to sleep so I could cry without anyone noticing, and I spent Christmas and New Year's alone.

I spent spring break last week at his parents' house and wanted to sleep with him. I've had trouble sleeping my entire life. Before I got into a relationship with him, I hadn't slept through a night comfortably since I was 12 years old. I've grown a dependent on sleeping with him. Additionally, I found out this week that my mom has clinical depression and I've spent every night worried about her. I needed his comfort. Instead of explaining this to his parents and asking if we could sleep in the same bed or even on the couch together, he proposed that we sleep together and hope no one noticed. Of course, his mom noticed and told him that we can't sleep together. Instead of explaining why he wanted to sleep with me, he said "But we didn't sleep together!" when she obviously saw us together.

At that point I hadn't told him about my mom because I didn't want to talk about it, but he did know that I couldn't sleep without him, and he didn't bother to tell his mom that. I have been respecting his relationship with his parents for a year and a half, figuring that if he was comfortable with them making decisions for him, it wasn't my business. But increasingly he's letting his parents make decisions that affect me too, and he isn't arguing or trying to compromise with them at all, he just accepts what they say. He's trying to get a job here this summer so I don't have to live alone for 4 months while he goes back to his hometown, but if his parents say "no", it doesn't matter, I'm still living alone.

That night, I got upset and told him that I felt like I wasn't important enough for him to argue about. I told him about each one of the incidents I already described here and why it made me feel bad. My exact words were "I feel like I'm not important enough for you to fight over." He held me and kissed me and apologized and even cried with me. I also told him about my mom, because I wanted him to understand why I needed him to be there for me right now. He said "I'll talk to my mom tomorrow and tell her why I want to sleep with you for the rest of this break. You need me."

We went to sleep in separate rooms and I woke up the next morning and climbed into his bed to wake him up, the way I do every morning at his parents' house when we aren't sleeping together. Before I even had the chance to say "good morning", he pushed me off the bed and said "Don't do that, my mom yelled at me last time." I broke and cried again. He never asked his mom if he could sleep with me that night either -- it was the last night of break and I spent it alone and sleepless again.

I love him more than anything else in the world, and I understand that he doesn't want to upset his parents by arguing with them, but at the same time, we're 20 years old. He isn't a little kid anymore and he should be able to make his own decisions. Our "argument" went as well as it could have, he agreed with me and apologized and told me what he was going to do to fix it, but then nothing happened. If he won't ask his mom if he can sleep next to me when I'm upset and worried about my own mom being sick, what happens when it's time for us to make other adult decisions that they don't approve of? I'm worried I won't get to spend a Christmas or a summer with him until after we're out of school. I just want to have a life with him.

How can I tell him what I need in a way that he'll understand?

[AnaKhouri]

Are his parents paying for his housing right now (you're both in school, I think?)? As long as they are paying for his housing, they did have a say in who he lives with, I'm afraid. The same goes for sleeping together in their house- you're in THEIR house, so you play by their rules. I spent 5 years sleeping on the sofa at my in-law's house before we were married, though we shared a bed every night otherwise.

The real issue is that he isn't willing to stand up for you to them. Are his parents (it mostly sounds like his mom) domineering? Are they particularly controlling? If he's afraid to even ask for what you want, it sounds like they are. Are you comfortable talkng to his mom yourself? Obviously it would be better if he did it, but it sounds like he's afraid of her.

All you can do is keep telling him and keep telling him...if he refuses to do so even after repeated discussions, you have two options: keep him and take it, or let him go. I'd give it some time, but I'm afraid that's where you're going to end up.

[MoonCat]

Ouch. Well, I have a question. Are his parents paying for his college educaton? If they are, that's probably a big part of why he feels they can tell him what to do (or not to do). That and the respect he probably has for them. They do sound a little controlling, but I'm guessing that they're worried about him getting in too deep with someone before he finishes school. From their point of view, their son could be risking his future by getting his girlfriend pregnant and having to support a child before he's ready. Not saying this is going to happen, and yes, I know you meant sleeping with him as in actually sleeping; but my guess is this is where they're coming from.

Now, if they are NOT paying for school, then it's time he spoke up and told them he can make his own decisions, thank you. And in that case you need to sit down and tell him you need to know where you stand as a couple. He may lack confidence because he has never had to make those decisions before, so you may have to encourage him (not nag, not demand, just being supportive).

You're right that at 20 years old, he should be more independent, but he may simply not be ready to stand up to his parents, whether or not they're paying for school. He may not know how to do it without seeming ungrateful or snotty. This is why I think he needs to tell you what he wants from your relationship and why he feels he can't buck his parents on anything. And you might need to accept that he's not going to break completely away from them for a while yet.

For the sleeping problem, have you ever seen a sleep therapist? I don't want to be negative, but if you ever break up with him, what happens then? You need to be able to get your sleep whether he's there or not.

[Kheldarson]

I'm not sure you can, Lindsey.

He's stuck in a pattern of behavior with his parents. Unless he's willing to change it, it won't happen. So what it'll really boil down to is are you willing to wait for him to be willing to change and accept the fact that he may never change or do you figure out a different path for yourself?

[Lindsey]

Are his parents paying for his housing right now (you're both in school, I think?)? As long as they are paying for his housing, they did have a say in who he lives with, I'm afraid. The same goes for sleeping together in their house- you're in THEIR house, so you play by their rules. I spent 5 years sleeping on the sofa at my in-law's house before we were married, though we shared a bed every night otherwise.

He has a scholarship that pays for his schooling and housing and contributes to a college fund out of his own paychecks.

I agree that I have to do what they want when I'm at their house, but I was going through a hard time last time I was there and wanted to sleep with him for those few days because I knew it would help me cope. I sleep in the spare bed without complaining the rest of the time. It's an exception that I'm sure his mom would have been willing to make if he'd talked to her, but he was afraid to even ask. I have a good relationship with his parents but I still think it's his place to ask, not mine.

The real issue is that he isn't willing to stand up for you to them. Are his parents (it mostly sounds like his mom) domineering? Are they particularly controlling? If he's afraid to even ask for what you want, it sounds like they are. Are you comfortable talkng to his mom yourself? Obviously it would be better if he did it, but it sounds like he's afraid of her.

That's the thing... I've spent a ton of time around his parents and they aren't particularly scary about these things. They will make it clear what their expectations are, but the few times I've seen him stand up to them or make a suggestion, they take it into account and consider it. When he initially wanted to get a job here for the upcoming summer, his parents' answer was flat out no, but since I was there and am familiar with the process of applying for summer jobs at our school, I talked them through it and they gave him permission to do it if they approve of the job he gets. He thanked me afterward for helping him convince them, but he barely said a word to them himself, he let me talk instead. He just isn't usually willing to tell them what he wants because he's afraid of arguing with them. I like his mom and I'm not afraid of talking to her, but at the same time, I don't think it's my place to do that most of the time.

From their point of view, their son could be risking his future by getting his girlfriend pregnant and having to support a child before he's ready. Not saying this is going to happen, and yes, I know you meant sleeping with him as in actually sleeping; but my guess is this is where they're coming from.

I'm sure that's part of it too. His mom has asked if we're having sex and made it clear that we shouldn't be.

Now, if they are NOT paying for school, then it's time he spoke up and told them he can make his own decisions, thank you. And in that case you need to sit down and tell him you need to know where you stand as a couple. He may lack confidence because he has never had to make those decisions before, so you may have to encourage him (not nag, not demand, just being supportive).

You're right that at 20 years old, he should be more independent, but he may simply not be ready to stand up to his parents, whether or not they're paying for school. He may not know how to do it without seeming ungrateful or snotty. This is why I think he needs to tell you what he wants from your relationship and why he feels he can't buck his parents on anything. And you might need to accept that he's not going to break completely away from them for a while yet.

I know where we stand as a couple because we've talked about it extensively -- if it weren't for us being broke we'd be engaged already. We agree about every aspect of what we want out of our life together -- where to go for grad school and our first apartment, where we want to live after school, how many kids we want and when to have them, what kind of wedding to have. My problem is that all these decisions of his take a backseat to what his parents want.

I will try to talk to him about it again and ask him why he won't talk to his parents, since I think you're right about that being important and I don't think it came up when we talked about it. I told him what bothered me and why it did, and he told me that he'd try to fix it, but we didn't talk about why he does it.

As for seeing a sleep therapist, the only health insurance I have is through my university and it doesn't cover seeing specialists. I'll get help for it someday, but it's not in the near future.

So what it'll really boil down to is are you willing to wait for him to be willing to change and accept the fact that he may never change or do you figure out a different path for yourself?

Thanks Kheldarson. He seems willing to work on it but I don't think he knows how.

[cashierbex]

I was kinda in the situation your bf is in. Just my dad was way more controlling. Its really hard to stand up to your parents. I'm sure he will find a way, if he truly loves you, to take control of his life.

[Kristev]

He's nothing but a child.

[RecoveringKinkoid]

All you can do is keep telling him and keep telling him...if he refuses to do so even after repeated discussions, you have two options: keep him and take it, or let him go. I'd give it some time, but I'm afraid that's where you're going to end up.

I'm not sure why a twenty year old man needs permission to go to his girlfriends house and spend the night. If it's a stipulation of him continuing to live at home, he needs to start looking for another place to live.

However, if he's to move in with you, why would he need his parents permission? That doesn't make any sense. He's legally adult. He doesn't need permission to move out, nor does he need anyone's approval in choosing where he's to live.

Also, his parent's aren't comfortable with you and him sleeping together in their own house. You must respect that. It doesn't matter if you agree with it, it's their house, their rules. If that rule is not acceptable, stay in a hotel. That way your boyfriend could stay with you, if you want. He doesn't need permission for that, either.

If his parents would not let you come over for the holidays, and you spent them alone because your boyfriend didn't come spend them with you, that's not their fault. That's his fault, and that's a huge, HUGE red flag.

Again, a twenty year old man does not need his parents permission to take any job he wants to take.

Also, a twenty year old man does not and SHOULD not be talking to his mom about what's going on between him and his girlfriend sexually. That's straight up creepy and disturbing. He's a grown ass man and he needs to get his mommy's permission to have sex?

Seriously?

Listen, nobody who needs to get their mommy's permission to screw ought to be screwing in the first place. That's why they call that an "adult activity." I dont' know if he is or isn't sexually active with you, it's not my business and it's not relevant to the conversation. It's not his mom's business, either. By twenty, he ought to know where babies come from. If he doesn't, I'd say his mom dropped the ball in a big way. Either way, it's really kind of too late to educate him on that now.

This guy is not an adult. He's going to cowtow to mommy every time. The guy LEFT YOU ALONE OVER THE HOLIDAYS so as not to anger his mommy. Think about that.

Personally, I'm not into boys. I prefer men. Because ain't nobody paying me to babysit, you know? You're saying "how can I get him to understand?" I'm sure he DOES understand. What you're really asking is "How can I change him and make him grow up?" You can't do that. He's spent twenty years being turned into a ussy-pay by his mom so she'd have complete control over him. You aren't going to undo that with a conversation.

The real question here is "Is this what you want out of your relationship? Is this going to be a man you can lean on and who can help you through this sometimes brutal life? Can this man be an equal partner to you?"

EDIT: also, keep this in mind. If he's afraid to talk to his parents, he's also going to be afraid to confront you about issues between the two of you. And what happens there is that he gets resentful, it builds up and builds up and he never talks about it. Resentment probably kills more relationships than anything else.

[Greenday]

Also, his parent's aren't comfortable with you and him sleeping together in their own house. You must respect that. It doesn't matter if you agree with it, it's their house, their rules.

This is one of the main points I'd make. If I was dating someone and my mom didn't want us sleeping together in her house where I live now, I wouldn't do it. And I wouldn't ask every time my girlfriend is over since the answer isn't going to change and it'd just piss my mom off. Bad days do not make for an excuse to break those rules. Either follow his parents rules or don't stay there.

The other thing you need to realize is he's still dependent on mommy and daddy thus he's still a kid. He's not an adult and he's not going to make adult decisions. You are going to have to learn to be independent without him since he can't make his own decisions and there are going to be times where you have no other options.

[morgana]

Listen to RK. RK very wise person.

[Treasure]

Ok,
the whole "Mom's house = Mom's rules" thing I get.... I lived with my parents until a year ago, and the rule was "not at mom's".... we could share a bed, b/c my parent's trusted me.

as for the whole "His parents, his place to talk to them".... its BS - especially if you think you could marry the boy.... they will never respect you as long you make it his place to discuss things with them - either the 2 of you need to talk to them... or you need to grow a pair, and talk to them yourself.... remember to be respectful, you don't have to be confrontational

obviously they already have some respect for your opinion, it was you who convinced them to "let" him get a job.... but I still have to echo the sentiments of others, at 20yrs old and no longer living at home with them, he doesn't need their permission for a blessed thing.... does he call his mommy every morning for permission to have pancakes instead of cereal for breakfast?

he seriously needs to grow up, or you need to be prepared to live under his mother's thumb and make all the household decisions (as long as they agree with what mommy wants)

[Seshat]

Side note:

It's a good thing that your mother has been diagnosed, and is presumably getting help.

Depression is extremely treatable these days. If she and her doctor choose the medication route, it will take time and patience for the pair of them to find and correct drug and dosage.
If they choose the 'mental physiotherapy' route (talking therapies), it will also take time - your mother will need to both learn coping strategies, and work through issues that are causing her problems.
If they choose to do both, then again, obviously, it will take time.

Some people with depression self-harm, because physical pain is more familiar and easier for them to cope with than mental pain. If your mother is doing this, please ask her to make sure her doctor or her talking-therapist knows: they can help her find safe ways to generate the physical pain, and then wean her off that and into an even better coping strategy.
(A common technique is to get the patient to wear a rubber band on their wrist, and sting themselves with the rubber band when they need the pain. No damage done, but it gives them the distraction they need.)

The most worrying case, of course, is if your mother is potentially suicidal. If that's the situation, I won't try to give you advice personally - instead, go to your student medical centre, and ask for a referral to a support group for friends and family of the severely depressed.
However, if your mother is under medical supervision; she should be fine.

I wish you both the best of luck; and that everything turns out well.

[houdini]

I think I agree with RK's opinion. Your BF does need to grow up, and isn't making any moves to - if you guys want to get married at some point, is he going to cope with moving out/wedding stress/family stress/living together stress? You may find that you end up taking the place of his mother if you get more serious, and that it isn't a dialogue between you - it's you giving your opinion, him agreeing to keep the peace, and nothing ever changing. And that ain't a healthy relationship.

Few odd thoughts
- Breaking habits is hard, and he's had twenty-years worth of habits that he's gotta break, which is tough. Saying that, he doesn't sound like he's trying very hard. Or at all.

- Don't fight his battles for him, otherwise it will be you against his mother, with him sitting in the middle and not backing either of you up. My husband and I do the each-to-their-own-family, mostly out of respect but also because it contains the misunderstandings. However, it's always both-of-us against whichever family if there is an issue. He's got to support you, and he isn't doing that.

- He could just be one of those people who is quiet and shy and HATES arguments. In which case, accept it and work round it.

- Ultimately, it's your life, and your sanity/relationship/peace of mind. You can't do his growing for him. I've been with people who were absolutely lovely, but weren't at the right stage of life to suit me. One's grown up since we went out, and we're now really good friends. But he was a complete twonk at 17 and admits it! (I was slightly less of a twonk, but only slightly.)

- Good luck!

[Jester]

Your boyfriend sounds like a nice enough boy. I say boy, because while he is legally an adult, he is lacking three things that makes someone a man: a spine and testicles.

A week later, his parents changed his mind and told him he could live with me.

I KNOW that that was a typo, but it is a very telling typo, and it is actually very accurate. His parents changed his mind. This is pretty much spot on, since he has clearly demonstrated no ability to think for himself or make his own decisions.

He's trying to get a job here this summer so I don't have to live alone for 4 months while he goes back to his hometown, but if his parents say "no", it doesn't matter, I'm still living alone.

I started off with this thing thinking I'd be a bit easier on the guy, but the more I type, the more annoyed I become by him. Yes, I get the whole thing about in his parents' house, it's their rules. I get it, I understand it. I do the same thing in my parents' house. If they say something is a no go in their house, well, it's their house. Same as when I have rules in my truck or my apartment...they're mine, therefore I make the rules.

But what the FUCK is this BULLSHIT about his fucking PARENTS deciding whether or not he'll have a job? Seriously? I mean, SERIOUSLY? Look, my mother has not always been thrilled about every job I've had. She hasn't agreed with all my job and career choices. She still doesn't. But after I turned 18 and moved out of her house (both events happening within a week, coincidentally), her opinion has been just that...her opinion. She does not decide FOR me what I will do or where I will work. Period. I ask for her advice from time to time, and respect her judgment, her experience, and her wisdom. But the last time my mother actually made a DECISION for me, it was where I should put the dish towel in her kitchen. The last time she made a decision for me outside of her house was some time in 1988.

We went to sleep in separate rooms and I woke up the next morning and climbed into his bed to wake him up, the way I do every morning at his parents' house when we aren't sleeping together. Before I even had the chance to say "good morning", he pushed me off the bed and said "Don't do that, my mom yelled at me last time."

Okay, again, I get the "their house, their rules" thing. But what the flying ferret fuck is THIS bullshit? "Stop it, my mommy will yell at me."

Dude. Grow. The. Fuck. UP.

My mother yells at me all the fucking time. Why? Because she disagrees with decisions I make. Sometimes she's right, sometimes she's not. And I will disagree with her, sometimes very vocally. But I am not AFRAID of my mother yelling at me. Certainly not enough to be a rude prick to my girlfriend when she is just trying to be my girlfriend. Even going with the "their house, their rules" thing, the worst *I* would have done would have been a "hey, honey, I appreciate this, but this may not be appropriate." Actually, bullshit. I wouldn't have even done that. I mean, I would have if my girlfriend had tried to actually do something that would violate my parents' house rules, but not for just saying good morning to me. He is basically worried about what his parents will think, not about whether or not you two are ACTUALLY breaking any house rules.

For the record, as an adult, I have been in my parents' house once with a girlfriend (my ex-fiancee) and once in my sister's apartment in L.A. with my girlfriend and my parents. In both instances, I freakin' slept with my girlfriend. And you know what my parents said to us, in both cases? "Good night." Why? Because my parents aren't freakin' prudes that think their adult son is still a kid.

But I digress, and I'm getting away from the point. This is not about his parents, although they clearly created this train wreck. This is about your boyfriend. Who I hope is reading this, although if his parents disapprove of him reading adult fucking words, he most certainly is not.

Seriously, I started this out thinking that I would say some nice things about the guy, and say you should try this and that and this and that, but the more I think about the utter bullshit he's doing, the more I come to the same basic conclusion:

Your boyfriend is a fucking pussy.

Not because of the fact that when you call him on his bullshit he apologizes and cries with you. Some guys are sensitive like that. I have cried with my girlfriend, and I am not ashamed to admit it.

No, he is a fucking pussy because he allows his mommy and daddy to make all his adult decisions for him, and won't bother trying to make his own way in the world. He's an adult now, allegedly, and he's at college, which is parents did not pay for, and living on his own, so they really should have no say so in what he does with his life. Except for the fact that he allows them to do just that.

No spine. No testicles.

I love him more than anything else in the world, and I understand that he doesn't want to upset his parents by arguing with them, but at the same time, we're 20 years old. He isn't a little kid anymore and he should be able to make his own decisions.

There is a difference between not wanting to upset your parents and not standing up for yourself, and allowing others to run your life.

You are right, he SHOULD be able to make his own decisions. But clearly he has no DESIRE to. Because once this child decides that he does, in fact, want to run his own life, he WILL. Clearly that time has not yet come.

He isn't a little kid anymore...

Are you certain about that? Because, other than his driver's license, all the evidence seems to indicate otherwise.

I came into this, as I said, with the idea of being nice. And damn it, I am going to finish it that way, despite everything above. Here's the deal: if he is the man you think he is, that you think so highly of, he can and--more importantly--WILL change. It IS difficult to change a lifetime of habits, especially something like learning to make your own decisions when they've always been made for you. If this guy truly wants to stand up to his parents, he will. If he truly cares for you, he will see the problem here, and will take steps to improve himself and the situation. For your sake, I sincerely hope that that happens. I hope he grows a spine. I hope he grows testicles. I hope he seizes control of his own life and says, "Mom, thanks for your opinion, but I'm an adult now, and this is how I'm going to be doing things." I hope to all the gods you believe in that this comes to pass, because you seem like a nice girl, and you clearly deserve better than this. I really hope he is the man you think and hope he is.

Good luck.

[blas]

If it makes you feel better, I'm 25, soon to be moving back to my parents' place, and I'm still not allowed to have boys over.

Of course, this time around, I told my parents that I WILL be spending the night at other people's houses, and I'm not 19 anymore and if that's a problem, I can save money and get a different place to live.