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  • How do you throw a relative out? (LONG!)

    Sigh.. so I was literally scrolling down to click post, when apparently my cat found the "close browser" keystroke sequence, instead. Pardon my frustration. This thread made me realize I have a question that you people might have some good advice for. (Should be sucky tenant thread.. I have trouble with links. And I'm going to be scarred for life over the "sucky Tennant" comment, thanks.)

    So that's my question. How do you throw a relative out of the house, when you know they have no job, and no money, and still be able to live with yourself?

    Here's some supporting information that I think affects the situation. It's my 25-year-old son with Asperger's. When he began college, we and his biological parents (he was adopted as a teen) came to the decision that he should focus on school, not work and rent. I no longer think this was smart, but we made the decision based on what we knew then, so anyway. We came to an agreement where his bio-parents would pay his living expenses until he graduated. Due to job loss on their part, we released them of that obligation and took it up ourselves for the last semester and a half that he had until graduation.

    Yeah. That was November 2008. Instead of graduating, he dropped out at what should have been the end of his final year, having failed a class in Fall 2008 that needed to be retaken before he can graduate. We've been stewing and dealing with it ever since, but like the job loss in 2008, things have changed again.

    We have a rent to own agreement with the owner of our house, my father. I learned last month, he's only charged us 80% of the mortgage, and paid the other 20% himself as a gift. I appreciate that, but like I said, things have changed. Mom's chemo and dialysis now take every penny and then some, and he can't do this anymore. We've looked at our budget, and the only realistic solution is to expect the 25-year-old son, and my 23-year-old brother who also lives with us, to pay rent to make up the last 30% (we figure it's a great time to start having them contribute toward utilities too). My brother is all about making that happen, for his part, and then some. He kind of rocks. The son, however? Yeah. Lord of the Rings Online, every day, all day. Enough is enough.

    Sooo.. this is where I come to all of you for advice. How do you word it, when you tell someone that you're charging rent or he's leaving and that's just the end of that? He argues like you wouldn't believe, and I often allow myself to get sucked into that. I figure I can only prevent this if I can walk away knowing that I nailed it on the first sentence and no further clarification is needed. And how do you stick to your word, when you know it's for the best, but it's so incredibly painful to do so? Thanks for the input.

  • #2
    The only thing I can suggest is writing it down and give him a copy if he tries to pull you into an argument tell him is all in the letter. Make sure you have copies in case he destroys the first one.

    This has the advantage of letting you tell him without getting into an argument and you also have a record to show the police or other legal departments.

    Sorry can't be more help.

    Comment


    • #3
      I agree with dougall re: documenting stuff.

      However, considering the fact that Son has Asperger's, just "getting off the couch and get a job" may not be that simple, though that depends on the severity of his diagnosis.

      Have you considered applying for either financial aid or some other forms of support re: helping him back to school, helping him getting a place of his own or obtaining a job where he might have a mentor/helper assigned? Perhaps his biological parents could apply on your behalf?
      Last edited by NorthernZel; 11-06-2012, 07:41 PM.
      A theory states that if anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for, it will be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable.

      Another theory states that this has already happened.

      Comment


      • #4
        Out of curiosity, is the playing video games vs getting a job a personal issue of his, or is it related to his condition?

        And if it's part of his condition, does he have a doctor?


        My own recommendation.... if he has a doctor, ask for help on how to broach this. And if he is truly incapable of being employed (vs not wanting a job etc) you may be able to apply for assistance for him as well, that may take some of the burden off.

        Or, as another measure... what would happen if he didn't have the video games?

        Comment


        • #5
          Yeah there's honestly not a lot anybody can do to help other than talk through "if it were me.." kind of stuff. Unless you want to do it for me - but that's not actually helping! That's just enabling me to be a wimp!

          We have looked into options for assistance and the like... and as much as it drives me NUTS when there's always some crazy excuse.. there are really some people who just fall through the cracks of every social service and bad-situation-prevention out there. But yes, I am continually on the lookout for the loophole or the assistance option, that might change that, because I know it can happen.

          NorthernZel, The Asperger's diagnosis does change things for him, which is why I mention it - it changes the way we talk to him for sure! I don't want to assume artificial limits on what he can achieve in life, based on the fact that he "has something". But it's a fair point, and I need to gauge his abilities by the evidence and not my own irritation. Thanks for mentioning it. I need to go back and rethink that.

          PepperElf, we believe the games are simply a way of filling the large amounts of time, but is that a realistic opinion, or is it because I'm fed-up personally? Good points, all... thank you. I thought I was sure, but when I went to explain it all in my own head even... I'm not sure. He might qualify for financial and job-placement assistance that might make a difference if he's willing. Thanks for pointing that out, and not just assuming I've been around long enough to know this stuff!

          Comment


          • #6
            In the long run, you will be doing him a favor. Safety nets are great, but sooner or later, you will not be there. Then what will he do. The sooner he learns to stand on his own, the better off he will be. It is tough love.

            The way you start is to stop enabling him. He can't play Lord of the Rings Online all day if he has no internet. Get rid of the cable so he can't watch TV. If you have to have internet for your job, then lock it away from him. No more play time.

            If he can't find a job, hire him to do house cleaning and cooking. Does he do his own laundry? If nothing else, these are skills he will need to live on his own. Make sure he has them.

            Set a deadline and create a plan. Stick to it. If he doesn't have a job by XX/XX/XX, here is what is going to happen. Here are you choices. Once you lay the plan out, you can not back down.

            Make sure he knows why. "If this does not happen, we lose the house." This is not just about him. It is about everyone.

            Good luck.
            Life is too short to not eat popcorn.
            Save the Ales!
            Toys for Tots at Rooster's Cafe

            Comment


            • #7
              My husband and I went through a similar situation with his son, 23 at the time and diagnosed with Aspberger's. He had been working at one of those places for people with learning disabilities (mostly higher-functioning retarded folks) and he was making less than minimum wage. He was also getting social security disability.

              He was living in a place that was supposed to help him learn to be self-sufficient, but it wasn't working and they were taking something like 60% of his income. He begged us to let him stay at our place. So we agreed, set him up in the spare bedroom, and agreed to a rent amount that was half of what he was paying before. (But it turned out it wasn't enough to pay for the extra utilities and food.)

              Things started going downhill when he got fired from his job. Yes, he wasn't mature enough to handle working at a place designed for retarded folks. Then he started accusing us of taking advantage of HIM by charging him rent. There were also issues with him disappearing (to his girlfriend's, we think) for days at a time, not cleaning up after himself, etc. We asked him to get a job. We demanded he get a job.

              Then we finally drew up an eviction notice. We gave him a month to find a different place to live. We signed it, and we had him sign it. He moved out within 2 weeks, and we barely hear from him now. In the past 2 years, he's gotten fired from half a dozen fast-food jobs. He's moved at least that many times. He's gone through at least 2 girlfriends (that we know of).

              I'd like to say it's been good for him, but I don't really think it has. But it's a lot less stress and financial burden for me and my husband.

              I don't really have much advice for you other than to document everything. If you decide to charge him rent, type up some sort of rental agreement (I imagine you can find some online). If you decide to evict him, type up an eviction notice, including the date you want him out. Be specific. Make two copies, and each of you sign both, so you each have a fully signed copy.

              Whatever you decide, good luck.
              "I look at the stars. It's a clear night and the Milky Way seems so near. That's where I'll be going soon. "We are all star stuff." I suddenly remember Delenn's line from Joe's script. Not a bad prospect. I am not afraid. In the meantime, let me close my eyes and sense the beauty around me. And take that breath under the dark sky full of stars. Breathe in. Breathe out. That's all."
              -Mira Furlan

              Comment


              • #8
                Quoth Maria View Post
                NorthernZel, The Asperger's diagnosis does change things for him, which is why I mention it - it changes the way we talk to him for sure! I don't want to assume artificial limits on what he can achieve in life, based on the fact that he "has something". But it's a fair point, and I need to gauge his abilities by the evidence and not my own irritation. Thanks for mentioning it. I need to go back and rethink that.
                Being a parent to a boy with Infantile Autism I can clearly understand the wish for one's child getting able to be self-reliant. I spend every day (being it conciously or uncounciously) focusing on that goal and try my best on preparing Lil Zel for that dreadful day when he's gonna be on his own. (And he's only 6!)

                But that's exactly the fact why I'm already looking for what options there are. He currently attends a special school that can cover his needs when it comes to learning as well as behavior therapy, physiotherapy and speech therapy. And when he reaches his late teens, I'll do anything to get him in an educational and/or work environment where he can benefit from his skills and special interests by the fullest.

                So that's why I suggest that you research which resources are avaiable for young adults with ASD (Autism Spectrum Disorder) in your area. Perhaps there might just be a place that can help you as well as your son in giving him the self-reliance that he needs.
                A theory states that if anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for, it will be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable.

                Another theory states that this has already happened.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Maria -
                  First - how high functioning IS he? Is he at a level to be self-sufficient (aka clean self every day, make food, effort for a budget, daily chores). If so, that's a signal for GET OUT. He doesn't WANT to go, because it's a nice fuzzy warm safe place right now.
                  What I would do (and I speak with some experience, I'm high functioning mental thingy) is Give Him A Deadline. 3 months.

                  Try this:
                  Your task is to find a job/shelter in the next three months. That will help you become better socialized (better social skills?..what's his 'catch'?). On day 91, you will be evicted, removed from here. You will have your clothes to take, and toiletries (spell these out) but nothing else. The locks will change that day.
                  There are resources for you, to build up to your deadline and be better prepared. I would suggest using those NOW, because finding a home/shelter is not easy. Here is a start for you. 211, and your therapist.
                  You may use the phone, and the PC to contact people for jobs. If you play games, you waste valuable time for your deadline. It is your choice.
                  To survive alone, you need a job, shelter, clothing and food. Having a phone is good, and a bus pass is great.
                  I love you. But you have become stagnant, and are not paying for your living expenses here. ANYONE living here has to pitch in. It doesn't matter if they have a disability or some issue - THEY PAY.
                  Again. 90 days to find a job, shelter, and food. Day 91, you will be removed with only some clothing and some toiletries. The locks will change.
                  I am NOT doing this task for you. YOU need to find the job, YOU need to find resources. YOU need to do the legwork. My only suggestion is to call 211, and start there.
                  You put all that effort and strength in that game. Use it for a job and place to live.

                  Northern's right about finding a contract and signatures. Would sheriff or police be a way to file this too, so nobody can say "you didn't give me enough notice" ?


                  Tell him from me: I did it in 85 days. The hardest part was finding shelter. HINT: you (general person) usually have to fit a specific criteria for low income : Domestic Violence, Homeless Person, Woman with Children. Funding for those groups is why they're picky.
                  If you have therapy, that's another place to start looking. I wish you luck.

                  You cannot bend. If you do, he's got you by the short hairs. That day is that day is that day. Period. There are many people who aren't "average/regular" who are doing just fine on their own. Shit, I'm not all that great myself but I'd pay. He's been there long enough and has been out to college / world long enough to know his self. No excuses. If he pulls the "helpless", tell him to man up. If he says "I can't find anything" tell him, "I'm sorry, go back to your therapist and call 211 again, you're smart enough, or ask your friends online".
                  Maybe I'm mean. To me, you are asking for "how to do". This to me is a black and white. I've got issues. I had to be out of a place with a deadline. I did it. You're laying the law. Out by X date or you have consequences. Pretty straightforward for me.
                  In my heart, in my soul, I'm a woman for rock & roll.
                  She's as fast as slugs on barbituates.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Sarcastic answer:
                    A firm grip on the belt, another firm grip at the shoulder, and a good heave.

                    Real answer:
                    It's tough.

                    But you have to double down on the fact that even if the relative has difficulty living without you, it will be less difficult than if you let them drag you down with them.

                    I just recently served my brother an ultimatum about getting his animals and his stuff out of my house. I said, "I'm sorry that you're in this situation, but it's not my fault you're there. You put yourself in this situation and you have to deal with the consequences and I'm not going to let you make your consequences my problem."

                    One thing that must be kept in mind is that if you need help for yourself, you can't help anyone else. So make sure you're stable before you worry about whether anyone else is stable and remember not to sacrifice your own stability for theirs, especially when it's likely they won't remain that way.

                    I used to rent a house with family. It was a nice place in a decent neighborhood at a great price. My brother was one of the family members and managed to used up enough resources that I couldn't pay the bills and we all got evicted. That sucked.

                    We (Nekojin & I) now own a house (well, we own a mortgage) and for a while, my brother lived with us (only because his girlfriend was very pregnant at the time). But he wasn't paying the bills and was using up more resources than he was returning (girlfriend, who can stay any time, miscarried), so we gave him an ultimatum. We were not going to default on our mortgage or lose any of the few luxuries we enjoy because of someone else. I doubt we will ever see most of what he owes us, but at the end of the day, we will still have our home.

                    There's a lot of drama every time money or his dogs or his stuff comes up, but we stand firm. We will help him out when it's feasible, but we can't help him out when we don't have the resources, no matter how bad off he is, and we aren't going to fix any of his problems for him.

                    One thing that has been helpful is that Nekojin and I are on the same page when it comes to our goals in this matter. We have each others' backs when there's a confrontation, and nothing we're asking is unreasonable. We haven't sprung anything on him. Every ultimatum has included enough time for him to make arrangements, and if arrangements are not made, we will not take the blame or take the fall. It's his life, he needs to figure out how to live it and not mooch off of us.

                    ^-.-^
                    Faith is about what you do. It's about aspiring to be better and nobler and kinder than you are. It's about making sacrifices for the good of others. - Dresden

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Quoth Andara Bledin View Post
                      Sarcastic answer:
                      A firm grip on the belt, another firm grip at the shoulder, and a good heave.

                      Real answer:
                      It's tough.
                      Isn't that the truth...

                      It looks like I'm going to get called to fly a load of coats to... erm... Teterborough?.. I don't even know what that is. Anyway, probably won't get back to this for a few days but I wanted to say thank you for the thoughts and input. I'm going to share this with The Husband and come to some decisions.

                      Especially those who speak from personal experience (I'd name names but I'm kind of in a rush). I can't tell you what a relief it is to hear from those who've been there, and how it worked out. It won't be perfect, but I think that ship's sailed, long ago. At least now we can learn from others' experience and do our level best to make it the best situation possible.

                      Thanks again.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I do agree with one thing: Make a plan and a ultimatum and stick to it.

                        Having dealt with people who have Aspergers in the past in friend situations I have seen that the more you flex and try to be nice the more it will create problems and stretch situations to make them worse.
                        I am so SO glad I was not present for this. There would have been an unpleasant duct tape incident. - Joi

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Deadlines are good.

                          Deadlines are your friend.

                          Just be aware that once a deadline is set, don't expect anything to happen until the last minute, at which point there will be a flurry of activity. Maybe allow some wiggle to finish things that are already in process, but other than that, follow through on the actions that were waiting on the deadline.

                          ^-.-^
                          Faith is about what you do. It's about aspiring to be better and nobler and kinder than you are. It's about making sacrifices for the good of others. - Dresden

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I don't know anybody who has (or who has relatives/offspring who have) Asperger's or ADHD or anything like that so ... this may not apply.

                            But I was going to suggest, if you feel like you are getting sucked into another downward-spiraling argument, try the "Broken Record" method.

                            X: "But I can't move out! I have nowhere to go!"
                            You: "I'm sorry to hear that. But you have to be out by [date]."
                            X: "But WHY? WHY are you making me move out???"
                            You: "We've been over that. You have to be out by [date]."
                            X: "But I don't know where I'm gonna GOOO. I have NOWHERE TO GOOOO!!!"
                            You: "I'm sorry to hear that. But you have to be out by [date]."

                            The idea behind 'Broken Record' is that you don't let the other person put you into a corner where you are actually giving reasons that they can argue with, forcing you into a defensive position. You just repeat the most important one or two points over and over again, leaving them to basically try to punch fog.

                            It's pretty aggravating for the person on the receiving end, which is why I said I'm not sure it's suitable for people with ADHA or Asperger's, as I know very little about such conditions, nor about what are appropriate methods to deal with them.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I know pretty much nothing about Asperger's. But based on your original post, I am going to assume that your son is functional enough to actually hold a job of some sort. With that assumption in mind....

                              He's fucking 25. It's time for him to get up off his ass, turn off his damn video game, go get a job, and contribute financially to the house. Perhaps you can help him in this by turning off the damn video game.

                              Now keep in mind, my answer is tempered by the fact that my 20 year old niece Bug is driving her parents and I nuts. She is currently going to school, but after losing her last job (can't remember why), she is not making any effort to find a new job. WHY is she not making any effort to find a new job? Because if she got a new job, it might interfere with her planned trip to Michigan in December. Which, I should point out, she can't even go on if her mother doesn't provide her with free airline passes. (Mom works for an airline.) Talk about the ultimate mooch!

                              But this is not about Bug. This is about Mr. LOTR.

                              Once again, assuming he is functional, I suggest you give him three options.
                              1. Get up off his ass, get a job, and contribute to the house.
                              2. Get up off his ass, move out, get a job, and be self-reliant.
                              3. Get up off his ass and get the hell out.

                              He's an adult. Time to stop having Mommy and Daddy pay for everything.

                              Sorry, but as someone who has worked my ass off since I was 16, such shenanigans just curdle my brain. I know, I know...he has Asperger's, and I don't. Well, based on the tone of the OP, it sounds like he's functional enough to work at a job. So that is no longer an excuse in my book.

                              And that brings me to the other thing that's been bothering me about this. His bills were being paid for him while he went to school. And then, in his final year, he dropped out. FOUR YEARS AGO. Which means part of the problem is that his parents LET HIM sit on his ass for four years. Basically sending him the message that it's alright, Mom and Dad will take care of everything, I don't have to do shit.

                              I hate to be critical of the parents here, but they must shoulder part of the blame. They created this monster. Hopefully it's not too late to change things.

                              "The Customer Is Always Right...But The Bartender Decides Who Is
                              Still A Customer."

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