Is some of this our fault?

[Eben56]

Would like to start a discussion about how often SCs are our fault.

I know there are those SCs that were just born evil and will be unreasonable for no reason..

But as a shopper, and a person of age (and wisdom?) There are many situations our retail establishments have made it a point to confuse the comsumer and take advantage of them.

Watch the consumer alerts on places like MSNBC and you hear that cell phone companies are going to re-up your contract just for talking to them. Banks are going to create hidden fees that you have never heard from before.

My credit Union applies credits BEFORE debits. Apparently not a nationwide concept.
WE bitch that the consumer does not understand (up to) 50 % off but we don not mark the actual sale price on the individual items.

Why shouldn't the consumer assume every time they step up to us the are going to get screwed if we possibly can?

Again, I am not talking about the 10% of SC who have mental probs or are scammimg.. I just think, as a casual customer, I hate having my guard up all the time because the store I am is going to try to scam me.

It has a lot to do with why I avoid Box stores and chains whenever I shop.

I don't want offend anyone... But I would like to hear a civil discussion of how much CS ignorance we cultivate.

[Kara]

Watch the consumer alerts on places like MSNBC and you hear that cell phone companies are going to re-up your contract just for talking to them. Banks are going to create hidden fees that you have never heard from before.

Except that A) cell phone companies will not and can not renew a contract without the customer's acceptance, despite what the media says, and B) 9 times out of 10, the information about the "hidden fees" is in the fine print that no one bothers to read. Should banks be up front about this? They can't go over every single detail with every single customer, so it's presented in writing. Do they know that no one will bother to read it? Probably. I don't know of a single customer that has ever read the Terms and Conditions of their contract, but they agree anyway. The point is that information is presented, but it's not the company's responsibility to hold the customer's hand and make sure they read it.

I think the real problems are places like MSN and local news shows. Those asserific Consumer Horror stories. 1 person gets legitimately screwed, and they put the word out that all companies are like that. As a rep for a wireless phone provider, I get a lot of that kind of thing a lot. People thinking we're trying to trick them into a contract or whatever. Seriously, I get paid whether you take a damn contract of not. The logistics of contracts make sense (hundreds of dollars worth of airtime for 40 bucks a month, or a phone that we paid $350 to get from the manufacturer given to you at little or no cost), but people get all crazy whenever you say contract.

It's maddening sometimes how crazy people get. You go over your minutes every month, I can effectively save you like $200 a year. All you have to do is promise me you're not going anywhere else for a year. But you're a long-time, loyal customer you say? Right, so you shouldn't have a problem with it. But channel 10 said that this guy got in a bad situation once because of a contract, you say? And do you really think that if that happened to everyone, we would still be in business?

I love the ones that accuse me of just trying to get a contract. Look, you can take the phone or leave it, you can change your plan and save money or keep wasting it. You can go f*** yourself with a flaming spear at Chuck E Cheese for all I care. It doesn't make a damn bit of difference to me.

We're not Wal-Mart, here. We're more like the mafia. We'll do you a favor, but you must do us a favor as well. Capice?

That's not to say all associates/reps/workers/whatever that customers encounter are angelic. They're people too, and equally as capable of being assholes. It's like the teaching that a person who has a good experience will tell 2 people, a person that has a bad experience will tell 10. However, if someone else was rude to you or lied to you X months/years ago, and I am clearly not doing that, then drop the damn attitude or bugger off.

[chops]

If I understand you correctly, you're speculating that customer suckiness is partly—if not mostly—the byproduct of the policies of large corporations and their greed.

Those policies can be grouped into categories; for example:

• the shady, if not illegal practices: unscrupulous lenders taking advantage of customers with marginal credit, credit card companies that always seem to sit on your payments until they're a day late then collect fees, etc. Many of the things you mention seem to fall under this category.

• the legal, but irritating policies: you know, those magazine offers at Best Buy, the scripts they have associates run through when you're just trying to buy a movie at Suncoast (find everything?/specials/reserve movies X and Y?/Replay member?/why not?), how everything seems to have a protection plan attached to it, etc.

It just seems like many companies are looking for ways to pad the bottom line these days, with expectations being so high and all. I wouldn't say it cultivates ignorance, but it does seem to cultivate ill will towards larger corporate stores and indirectly at the hard working people who keep them running.

[FuzzyKitten99]

One of our MN state senators (Amy Klobuchar), wants to tell cellphone companies that they have to limit the contract-termination fees becauses apparently those who enter into contract, even though they are told about the fee up front, are needing the government to look out for them, because they are incapable of taking care of themselves.

I know my contract fee is $200. So? If I choose to break that, I know what I have to pay. I don't need the government to waste time, and my tax money, monitoring the operations and contracts of private businesses, when they could be putting their time and our money to better use.

[Rapscallion]

Moved to GWC - seemed more appropriate.

Rapscallion

[powerboy]

I would say about 20% of it is the fault of the business. Some are out to scam the customers. Which in turns, makes the rest of us look bad. I actually treat customers with respect, and it is hard with some customers. I am not out to scam anyone, and if a company I am working for, wants me too. Then I am out that door.

[Millahtyme1983]

It's maddening sometimes how crazy people get. You go over your minutes every month, I can effectively save you like $200 a year. All you have to do is promise me you're not going anywhere else for a year. But you're a long-time, loyal customer you say? Right, so you shouldn't have a problem with it. But channel 10 said that this guy got in a bad situation once because of a contract, you say? And do you really think that if that happened to everyone, we would still be in business?

I find with a lot of those "news" segments they go into detail and explain that it was either a one in a million situation, or that it was easily avoidable on both ends. Yet the promo for it, and the recap at the end, both make it sound like some sort of major conspiracy theory. And anyone not actually paying attention to the segment would pretty much just walk away with the information "contracts=bad".

Though I do agree with the overall sentiment that most of the major corporations and big box companies are soo concerned with increasing their profits that they will shove things down the customers throats, not necessarily scamming them, but going far enough to give the customer the idea that the company is out to scam them.

[Rapscallion]

Generally speaking, I'd say most of it comes from the people who make the decisions, not the people who have to enact them.

Rapscallion

[Gravekeeper]

Indeed, most of what you've suggested comes from a corporate level. Not from the Frontline(tm) where we are. Us grunts have no input or power over contracts, rates, credit systems. Plus 95% of the problems with such things are as Kara suggested. No on god damn reads anything even if its a legally binding contract they're looking at.

WE bitch that the consumer does not understand (up to) 50 % off but we don not mark the actual sale price on the individual items.

Thats because common sense dictates the person would read the giant "x% Off!" sign hanging above said individual items. If they pick up an item from a 30% off bin and demand it be 50% off like x item in y store, they're being a jackass and an SC.

If they find 30% item stuffed on a rack with 50% off item that's A) The fault of another SC typically and B) the mind should go "One of these things is not like the other" and correctly deduce what occurred or ask an employee for clarification. If all of this fails an ADULT would simply go "Oh, ok." and accept the fact its only 30% off.

So no, I don't believe it's is our fault. We can't really forge an SC per say because SCism is more like a character trait ( Oft born from idiocy, ignorance, selfishness, etc ). Its not the situation that makes the SC but rather how a person interprets and reacts to the situation that makes one an SC.

Regardless of what kind of problem I encounter with a company, I will address it like a rational ADULT. Not like a whiny/angry/spoiled child.

[Boozy]

Let's define what makes someone an SC.

I personally believe that SC behaviour includes:
- yelling, screaming, cursing
- belittling us; implying or stating that we are beneath them
- being rude when they could have been polite
- stealing/scamming/lying/cheating
- demanding free stuff when they are owed nothing
- refusing to read signs/contracts/return policies, or saying they didn't when the situation suits them
- refusing to clean up after themselves in restrooms
- rudeness to other customers, like cutting in line
- ignoring the disruptive or dangerous behaviour of their children
- actual physical assault (thankfully rare)

Obviously, this isn't a comprehensive list, but it gives you an idea of what I would consider to be crossing the line. SCs don't assert their rights in a mature fashion; they behave like two year-olds who haven't got their way.

Regardless of what a company may or may not have done to a customer, does any of this behaviour seem appropriate, mature, or constructive?

I am no fan of corporations, but there has to be personal responsibility for one's actions. "My cell phone company made me do it" is the SC version of the twinkie defense.

A grown adult should be expected to act like one, no matter how they feel they've been treated. Its neither my fault nor my company's that SCs can't control themselves.

[Becks]

Generally speaking, I'd say most of it comes from the people who make the decisions, not the people who have to enact them.

Raps has it right, in my opinion.

[GolfCart34]

One of the new programs at the bank where I work kind of takes advantage of customers (unfortunately). Now everybody knows what happens when you bounce a check (well, one of a few things can happen). Situation A: You get whacked a fee, your check gets bounced, end of story. Situation B: You overdraw your account, but the account is linked to a savings account. You get hit up with a small fee, the bank transfers some money from your other account to cover the charge, and things are happy again (I have an account with my dad at a competitor's bank that does this). Situation C: Similar to situation B only your account is linked to a credit line.

Anyway, the bank put in this new program that says you get $x amount of leeway depending on your account type that you can overdraw your account by. So if you're at Wal-Mart and you need to buy a new pair of boots for the snow, but only have $3 in your account, you can use this service to buy your boots. The catch is you get charged a huge fee for using the service and you get whacked this fee for every transaction you make that overdraws you. Meaning that you get charged the fee again if you go to the grocery store to buy food and again if you go to the dollar store to buy Christmas decorations.

There are two distinct problems with this program, though. First of all, they signed just about everybody up for this program without properly explaining it to them. Not only that, but I think the program should have been something you can voluntarily opt into rather than just being signed up for it. Second, they say they properly explained this to customers by sending them a letter regarding the new service. We have had so many complaints about this program since it began that I hardly believe it was worth it. And don't get me started on how many people did not read the letter and claim they didn't get one in the mail (chances are they did and they just threw it out thinking it was an ad from the bank).

The program is also rather confusing for the typical bank customer (well, typical at our branch anyway) because if they call up the automated line to find out their account balance, the automated system will tell them their balance with this service instead of the balance without the service, so the customer will think they have way more money than they actually have in the account, go spend the money, then complain when they get charged all of the fees.

If the bank is so concerned about the customers, then I don't think they would have enacted this program. The higher ups enacted it because they saw dollar signs in a big way, especially since they knew most customers wouldn't question the program. I personally think it's rather greedy of them to do this, but there really is nothing I can do about it except hope they take away the program after realizing it was a bad idea.

[Captain Kidd]

Then you have AOL, and as I discovered Vonage, termination hell.

AOL got sued by the New York state attorney-general ($1.25 mil) due to overtly hostile actions to keep customers. At one point CNBC decided to test it by having one of their guys cancel their account. Right off the bat they were disconnected. The second attempt took 45 minutes.

Vonage screwed me over for 3 additional months of service with a similar tactic. I had a rep flat out lie to me that if I went to a lower "special" plan for 3 months, I'd avoid the termination fee. Three months later I get, "We don't have anything like that." I was bullied, cajoled, put on multiple holds to "check with the manager" and coming back with "special offers". They did anything and everything but cancel my account. It took me over an hour to get my account canceled!

I'm still thinking there's a couple anomalies with my final bill that I could get them on, maybe I should keep an eye out for any class action lawsuits. If my experience was anything like normal (and my digging around says it is), then they're going to hauled up in front of a judge none too soon.

I kept mostly cool, but my blood was boiling.

[Rahmota]

I would have to say that a good percentage of SC are caused by corporate greed and the policies they enact to help protect their fat cat profits. Unfortunately the frustration and outright anti-customer attitudes of the companies that frontline retail workers are caught in can cause some people to get rather emotional about getting the shaft. I am sorry but a perosn can be pushed into loosing their temper when faed with the implacable uncaring greedy attitudes of corporate america and unfortunately retail workers get to catch the flak as the actual corporate culprits are well protected and insultated from the results of their evil.

In danger of straying into fratchign territory I actually favor greater government regulation over corporate america. I am not against a company making a fair and reasonable profit but many companies, especially oil companies, go far beyond what would be able to be considered fair and reasonable. And by government regulation I mean maximum age laws, price controls and higher minimum wages and benefits for their employees. Especially for large industries and corporations in vital fields.

[Eben56]

"Thats because common sense dictates the person would read the giant "x% Off!" sign hanging above said individual items. If they pick up an item from a 30% off bin and demand it be 50% off like x item in y store, they're being a jackass and an SC."

I guess in this case, I was not thinking of the clearly defined bin but of the general department signs that say "up to" 50 % off. with poor markings on the actual items.

I am reminded of the time my father got this check in the mail that was a come on for a local auto dealer. The check was for $3,000.00 and was printed all over it to use it against any new car on the lot after negotiating your best deal. When my father pulled out the check after negotiating the purchase of the new truck, the salesman told him the check was only worth $250.00 on that vehicle. On the back of page two of the accompanying letter in #6 print was something to the effect that it was "UP TO" that amount and only on selected models. My father never went back to that dealer.

I also want to add that as a person who is now risen to Management "ducks".. I sometimes refer to the whole environment as "we". I am not implying when I ask the question are "we" partially to blame? that the "we" is the front lines. But the whole culture of CYA and gouge for every penny.

I sometimes think that we tend to forget that there is no difference in the mind of the consumer between the company and the person.. At work you ARE company xyz.. good, bad, or indifferent.