Unions?

[AngryCas]

I am pretty young so I don't know too much about unions. All I know is that when they are mentioned in corporate owned stores or factories, management goes apeshit. I even know of a few people who were fired for merely talking about them.

Since I deal with some pretty sucky work conditions and I work in a retail corporation, is it a good idea for me to join a union? Why does management hate unions so much?

Forgive me if this is the wrong thread I posted in, but I didn't consider it "off-topic," and, well, maybe it will be "happening at work."

[CancelMyService]

In before the pile-on: this topic is discussed over at Fratching in pretty good detail.

My two cents: Like anything, there's good and bad. Considering how much management hates unions, who do you think benefits from them the most?

[powerboy]

To me unions are great. Yeah you have to pay to be in it. But if you have a work related problem, just go to the union. And they will try to work out a deal that is great for the employee.

[TennesseeWhiskey]

Depends on if your union and its reps have balls or not. Some unions bow and scrape to the companies, since, without the companies, they collect no dues. Too, it's going to depend on your state's laws.

Is there a need for unions? You betcha. Too many times, people go up the ladder and forget where they came from, and start getting the big head and the "screw the little man" mentality. Unions are a way to keep that type of person on the straight and narrow path. It also helps when you have a supervisor who just has it out for an individual employee, as well.

Corporate offices hate unions with a purple passion, and they expect managers to as well. I just can't do that, my old man's a union member in a box factory, and my dad was in Teamsters for many years. Unions are like anything else, they can be great things, or, they can bollox things up.

Me, I treat my employees well, and, if they have a problem, I do my level best to take care of it, and if I can't, I let them know it's above my level, and I need to talk to my boss. The biggest thing is being honest to your employees and treating them with respect and dignity. Some idiots can't be arsed to do that, so that's where unions usually come in, along with wages and benefits. Ours are pretty dang good, especially for retail.

[Sandman]

Two words.. Necessary Evil.

Good: They started up the minimum wage movement, and helped enact many of the labor laws we have today protecting employees. In many cases, they help protect their jobs from unfair firing and help get the right ones promoted who have been there the longest and are the most qualified.

Bad: They can drive a business into the ground costing the employees their jobs if they fight too hard for the employee rights and benefits. They could also cause a business to move to another country or state that isn't so union friendly.

[draftermatt]

Another bad thing is people who are incompetent, rude, etc. that can't be fired because the union steps in in their defense.

I should have said this earlier, so I'll add it here rather than make a new post.

I deal with an Iron Worker Union everyday. I sympathize with them, and I understand why they are in the union. It amazes me that Iron Workers make $100K a year, and get double time for working President's day in NY, but I digress.

Most of our problems occur because while my iron workers are union most of the jobsites we work are Non-Union. So to keep people from picketing (which was a big problem when I started here) the contractors have to keep people off the site.

Problems arise when a contractor has a generator running, which the union requires having someone stand next to and make sure it's running correctly. So then the crane operator will walk off the job, or the iron workers from the local union hall will walk off.

That's another problem. We have to bring guys in from local halls on our jobs so the local halls don't picket us because our IW's are from Jersey.

[IT Grunt]

Another bad thing is people who are incompetent, rude, etc. that can't be fired because the union steps in in their defense.

I've seen this very situation occur. An electrician was supposed to do maintenance on a motor, and part of that was checking the brushes for replacement. The brushes in this motor were extremely worn. New, they are like three inches long. These were worn down to less than 3/8". He either didn't check, or did and didn't want to take the time to replace them, but either way marked on the maintenance sheet that they were checked and were OK. No more than a few hours later, the motor practically blew up. Naturally, he was fired. However, the union fought to get him hired back. It took mounds of documentation showing that this was a common theme for him before they were defeated, and he didn't return. If that documentation wasn't there, however, he'd have been hired back, paid for lost time, and put back in a position to do the same thing all over again. That is something I personally just do not agree with.

As for them running a company into the ground, that very thing also happened here. A local company was running low on funds, and wanted to freeze salaries until they were out of the hole. The union threatened a strike unless they got raises. The company owner actually pulled out the ledger, showed them the company funds, and said, "You tell me where I'm going to get the money, and I'd be happy to.". Undeterred, the union struck. The company shut its doors.

As far as I'm concerned, they had their purpose back in the day, when there were no labor laws and fair employment laws like there are today. In today's world, they're more of a hindrance. My $0.02, your mileage may vary.

[wagegoth]

Look, we don't want this to go to fratching, and I'm not a mod, but I'll toss in my two cents.

My husband is union. His local union rep is near useless, which is annoying, since my husband's mother help organize the local hall (her name is on the plaque). The union has supported people who should have been fired. But it has also kept people from being fired who could have been let go in our "at will" state for no reason other than the supervisor didn't personally like the employee.

Unions have developed problems because power corrupts. Companies played hard ball, the unions threw it back harder. That's the reason for most of the amazingly stupid rules that are complained about in some of these posts.

Overall, unions, I believe, are a good idea. From personal experience, when unions are voted out, the employees end up losing long-term. I worked for Nordstrom. Only five of our stores were union, but the benefits they had were given to employees at all of the stores. Unfortunately, the new union president decided he was going to make a name for himself and push Nordstrom around. The employees panicked. They knew Nordstrom was one of the better retail companies to work for and feared losing their jobs because of this idiot. They voted out the union. Within a year, we went from 5 holidays a year to two. We lost our time plus time and a half for working certain other holidays. Our benefits were cut. And so on, and so on.

Other people I know who were in situations where unions were voted out went through the same thing.

Unions basically tell the company that they have to deal with the employees as a group. No employee can be singled out. If there is a problem, the employee goes to his shop steward and the steward deals with the company. Of course, this can be a problem, just like any other job situation, if the employee doesn't get along with the steward or the steward is a management kiss-up.

This is getting long, but here's an illustration of a union that just takes the money and does nothing and a union that does its job. This story is completely true and was told to me by the sister of one of the victims. I verified it later with another UPS driver. The story is more than ten years old.

A UPS driver delivered to a wealthy (extremely wealthy) suburban area. The kind of area where the police log contains entries about calls because someone parked too close to someone else's flowers. UPSD made daily small box deliveries to a Russian man. Always polite, no problems. Went on for several weeks.

One day, she knocks on Russian man's door. The door opens, but it's not Russian man, it's a short Asian man with a gun. She freezes. Another Asian man grabs her, drags her into the house. There are four or five Asian men in the house. She's thrown down and tied up. They begin hitting her, asking her where the Russian man is. She tells them she doesn't know, she's just the UPS driver. She sees the FedEx driver and the USPS delivery woman already on the floor, neither of them looking good.

Unhappy with her answers, they pistol whip her. She's left on the floor while they continue to ransack the house.

After some time, they apparently give up on finding the man or any clue as to where to find him. Then they begin to argue about what to do with their prisoners. UPSD is not unconscious, but decides it's best to pretend she is. One of the men decides to test her. He places his gun next right next to her head, then fires it into the floor. She doesn't move, probably saving her life and everyone else's life.

The men leave.

Someone finally notices all the delivery vehicles sitting outside the house and notifies the police.

What happened next? I don't know about the USPS worker. The FedEx employee was on PTSD leave for months. He received a large settlement and psychiatric and medical care. The UPS driver got minimum medical care and was basically told to get back to work or she'd lose her job.

The moral of the story: Just joining a union won't fix things, you have to join the right union.

And the Russian man was found about six months later in a ditch in some a city in the Midwest. He was working a scam for the Russian mob, and the Russian mob doesn't like failure. Russian man wasn't union.

[Gurndigarn]

And I can put in a few points from the management's side. Sometimes, it's a case of they don't want to give employees pay or benefits that employees need. Other times, it's because unions rack up huge bills for no good reason.

Case in point: I had a boss working for Gameworks at the time they were building a place in a closed-shop town (IE, one where you had to have unions). They showed up with people who understood video games and knew how to assemble, test, and fix said games. Less than 20 minutes after they started work, representatives of the carpenters union (those games are in wooden boxes) and the electricians union (they have power cords) were on site, with members on the way. Members who knew nothing about setting up, testing, or fixing video games. According to my boss, Gameworks ran up a $500,000 tab to have union representatives "supervise" (IE, sit on their asses) the people who actually knew their job, not doing a damn thing, which was probably good, since they had not freaking clue what was going on.

So... some places, unions are a damn fine idea. Consider a recent thread about how WalMart treats its employees, and you can see why they may not be a bad idea. On the other hand, some unions are going to kill the companies their employees work for, and then complain that there are no more jobs for their workers... far less good.

[edible_hat]

There's a "pendulum of power" when it comes to unions. First off the employers have all the power and can do things like fire you for being 30 seconds late. Then the unions come along and fight for reasonable working conditions, benefits etc. Then they fight for more and more and you end up with things like having to pay a crew of 8 people for 8 hours work for a job that takes 1 person 2 hours (actual example from Australia's waterfronts). The pendulum's swung too far towards the unions. Then the employers start the process of moving things back to reasonable hours, wages, etc. But they go to far and you're back to working for 8 cents a day again. And the cycle repeats.

[Spiffy McMoron]

First off, thanks for keeping this thread reasonable and civil. And yes, you guys are more than welcome to take this conversation over to Fratching. I've even started a thread over there for you guys!

Since I deal with some pretty sucky work conditions and I work in a retail corporation, is it a good idea for me to join a union? Why does management hate unions so much?

I'm not sure how unions work in your location, but from what I've seen, if you are in a retail location, a union won't bother allowing one or two people to join. It's often an all-or-nothing affair, which means that you would have to unionize the whole store. Before you do that, read up on a case in Quebec about what happened when two teens tried to unionize a McDonald's.

Link -- It's the best link I could find in such a short notice. My google-fu is weak today.

Basically, two teens tried to unionize a McDonald's franchise, succeeded, only to have McDonald's shut down the location due to "bad location" according to the owners. Not every company would do this, but it does show the lengths to which some companies with keep out unions.

[wagegoth]

When PriceClub and Costco merged, they gradually shut down all the PriceClubs. Why? They were union, even though they often had to go to the expense of building newer and bigger stores, because there were often no Costcos in nearby locations, or the Costcos were smaller and had fewer departments.

It's estimated by the AFL-CIO that union busting in the U.S. is a $4 billion a year industry.

If you're looking for links, there are some good ones from the firedoglake blog: http://firedoglake.com/2008/02/28/un...gly-us-export/