Assault and Batteries?

[KuzcoLlama]

This is just going back and forth and missing the original post, so it is now closed.

Anyone wishing to continue the issue may take it over to Fratching.

[kibbles]

So you're accusing the guy of having an illegally modified trigger mechanism on his weapon? That's even more of a stretch than saying the guy was familiar with laser-sights. A legal, properly maintained weapon doesn't go off 'accidentally' unless they're jolted severely while chambered and cocked, so your whole argument is moot.

Sorry but I never accused anyone of having an illegally modified trigger mechanism on the weapon, so please don't put words into my mouth. It is possible for a gun (legally and properly maintained) to go off, it may be rare but it doesn't eliminate the possibility. And I wasn't stating an argument, so my argument is not moot, I was merely stating an opinion, that's all.

And I fail to see how my stating a simple opinion meant that I was hiding behind "guns are bad", and where in my post did you ever see me say that the teenagers should have got off scott free. If you had read my previous post you would have seen me say that the teenagers should have been punished, but sorry I still stand by my opinion that the guy got what he deserved.

[JustADude]

I still say IMO that pulling a loaded weapon that could accidentally go off is unrestrained violence. He got what he deserved IMO.

So you're accusing the guy of having an illegally modified trigger mechanism on his weapon? That's even more of a stretch than saying the guy was familiar with laser-sights. A legal, properly maintained weapon doesn't go off 'accidentally' unless they're jolted severely while chambered and cocked, so your whole argument is moot.

Yes, he did over-react a little, he just responded to an assault by two little punks... and yes, they assaulted him. By shining the laser in his eyes they provoked the perception of threat, which is what assault IS, so why don't you quit hiding behind 'guns are bad' and justify how a pair of bratty teenagers can get away scott-free with assaulting an old man who they THOUGHT was helpless?

[kibbles]

I still say IMO that pulling a loaded weapon that could accidentally go off is unrestrained violence. He got what he deserved IMO.

[Banrion]

Sorry but I still say that old guy was totally in the wrong. You are only allowed to defend yourself with as much force as needed. Even if someone is being threatened or attacked, it is not a license to respond with unrestrained violence..i.e. pulling a gun on someone.

No, FIRING the gun would have been unrestrained violence, simply making it known that he had a gun and was prepared to use it is not in and of itself violent.

[kibbles]

Sorry but I still say that old guy was totally in the wrong. You are only allowed to defend yourself with as much force as needed. Even if someone is being threatened or attacked, it is not a license to respond with unrestrained violence..i.e. pulling a gun on someone.

[Banrion]

Tell me. If you were in an argument and you said something that could be construed as a threat, how would you like someone pulling a gun on you?

A threat is a threat, be it from some punk ass kids, or militant martians, and will be responded to in kind. I don't threaten something if I am not willing to follow through on it, and assume that others behave similarly. So yes, if I said to someone "I'm gonna kill you." I mean it, and if said person happened to be armed it would be entirely appropriate to to brandish said weapon in an attempt to disuade me. But these kids took it one step further, and not only threatened the gentleman, they took steps to blind and distract him, that is not only a threat, but a full on assault. He had every reason to belive that he was being attacked and every right to react to imminent bodily harm.

[draftermatt]

Rahmota,

I have no problem with people defending themselves. And I'm not arguing that people shouldn't do that. However, I really don't think pulling a gun was a valid response. That is overreacting pure and simple.

Any sane person would have turned away from the offending laser so it wasn't in their eyes and gone and got security.

Tell me. If you were in an argument and you said something that could be construed as a threat, how would you like someone pulling a gun on you?

Wouldn't you prefer it if you talked it through rationally?

Sometimes violence is neccesary, but he who resorts to violence when there are other options available is a fool.

[Rahmota]

Draftermatt: No one said he was a veitnam vet or suffering from PTSD or anything but speculation about the reason why an older gentleman would defend himself from an attack by a pair of cowardly punk teens. The only thing along those lines was Proctor's comment that he was probably a war vet. Which if he was it could be understandable why he would react the way he did. The man defended himself from a pair of attackers. And yes that was an attack. Anytime someone shines a laser pointer in your face without permission and in a place and time where it would not be expected is an attack. I mean like I said look at it from his POV here he is walkign along the mall and then blink there is a laser being shone in his face. That is an attack. The laser could have burned his retina if it was one of the higher powered ones or even if not injurious to him the blinding and distracting affect of the laser would be sufficient to create an opening for the punks to mug him. The gentleman had a right to defend himself and use the most appropriate and effective means available to him. Would it have been better if he had pepper sprayed both punks then wrestled them to the floor? Used martial arts and kicked them into the next kingdom? He drew his sidearm, restrained the punks and held them for the authorities which should have been trustworthy and honorable enough to arrest the punks and give the man a thank you for doing his civic duty.

The attitude of condeming people who stand up and defend themselves is part of what is destroying American society. A man takes personal responsibility for his own safety and then people act like hes the bad guy when he did nothing wrong.

Those where not excuses they where reasons. All valid and reasonable and rational reasons for a person defending himself. But anyhow I think this has gone far enough for here.

Noelegy:

A couple of years ago, some kids trespassed through my parents' yard and threw rocks through ALL the old car windows, including the Godfather caddy

Now that truely is a criminal action... The Godfather caddy! How the humanity of it.!

[draftermatt]

You know what, nevermind.

There is no sense in arguing over why a man pulling a gun on a bunch of kids with a laser pointer is wrong. If you have to make that many excuses to prove your point, you obviously don't have one.

I want to know when he suddenly became a Vietnam vet suffering from shell shock.

[Noelegy]

And how. I had a brother whose wrist was slapped by the legal system so many times people were wondering who would learn first... my brother or the system.

It ended up being the legal system, but only after he did something meriting more a long stay.

Same thing happened with one of my stepsons. The thing that made the difference was that he went from age 16 to age 17, which in the eyes of the Texas legal system made him an adult and therefore eligible for big boy jail. I can't tell you how many times his dad and I begged the probation officer to give him stiffer penalties.

He's in jail now, and oddly enough we feel at peace because for the first time we don't have to worry about where he is.

[Noelegy]

Many years ago, some punks late one night decided they'd have some fun. They drove down my street shooting a pellet gun at EVERY SINGLE CAR WINDOW along the street.

My dad is an old car freak. He can look at just about any classic auto and tell you not only the make, model, and year, but how many they made that year. Unfortunately, he is also a packrat. He gets his hands on some money, and he'll buy crap...their backyard is filled with "great buys" that he thought he was making an investment on. Some of these old cars are pretty interesting, such as the '40 Cadillac that was actually in the movie "The Godfather," but they are in varying states of disrepair/remodel because he never has the time to follow through on all these investments.

A couple of years ago, some kids trespassed through my parents' yard and threw rocks through ALL the old car windows, including the Godfather caddy. He really needs to fence in the property, but it's an indication of how much my old hometown has changed since I lived there. Kids would not have dared pull that kind of shenanigans even 20 years ago.

[Rahmota]

Actually the old guy IMO did nothign wrong for the reasons already pointed out by banrion, scruff, and morgana. I would have probably reacted the same way if I had been threatened in a similar manner by two srange teens. There is nothing over reacting in the actions as presented by the poster.

I mean try and imagine it from his POV here he is walkign along and all of a sudden he gets a red laser in the face. There is potential for harm and whether he was exmilitary or police a red laser dot in the movies is usually followed a bullet or other attack. So there was definately a threat to him at least from his POV and I would have felt threatened as well in the same instance and would have drawn a firearm upon the attackers.

A laser pointer can do damage to a person's eyes. The higher powered ones are quite capable of blinding a person like pointed out in the article. Regardless of which they are capable of causing at the very least a momentary blindness and create an opportunity to mg the target of the attack. The guy was acting in a responsible and civilized manner holding the punks who attacked him like that. The punks should have been thrown in jail and the good upstanding citizen given at the very least a pat on the back if not a public thank you for teaching the punks a very importnt lesson. Stupidity can sometimes be very hazardous to one's health.

Anything further and we can discus this on fratching where I think I've made my position quite clear.

An armed person is a citizen, an unarmed person is a subject.

[Gabrielle Proctor]

My thoughts exactly. If there is a laser dot on my forehead, and I happen to be armed, I will draw my weapon. But, I wouldn't keep it out longer than needed after realizing it was just two idiots w/a laser pointer. I bet they learned their lesson.

You can't really expect an old man (who is probably a war vet) to keep up with the times and what's the "newest thing" kids are using today to annoy the crap out of everyone else (currently heelies). He was probably just as surprised as those kids were.

No offense to parents on this forum, but I hate kids.

[JustADude]

The guy over-reacted, yes, but that's easy to say when you completely know the situation.

As others have said, someone who has been exposed to laser targeting systems WILL react to a red dot as a potential threat. He should have put the gun away once he realized the kids were just a pair of f*cking morons, but I won't say he was in the wrong for drawing when he saw the beam.