I got bitten by a dog at PetCo today..

[draggar]

how does one train a dog not to bite, exactly? I'm very interested to know

Simple - Don't reward the behavior. How we're teaching Pollux his inhibition is that if we're plating with him and he nips too hard we give him a loud and short NO and a snarl and then the playtime is over (that all happens in less than 2 seconds).

Its great for puppies because they're very sensitive to communication and really want to please the alphas. It's still good on adults but takes longer to train them.

If you learn to read the signs then you can also distract them before they try to bite - with a toy or something else that is appropriate.

[wildman]

Well, not really it was a "puppy mouthing" (where they put something in their mouth but don't bite down) - luckily I know the difference but I'm sure 99% of the people out there don't.

On my lunch break I stopped by PetCo to get a new feeder for the chickens. I got what I wanted and went to the checkout. As I was standing there I felt something pushing on my back - it was a puppy. I don't know this puppy so I ignored it. Next thing I know the puppy mouths my hand. The other wasn't even paying attention.

Me (duh)
SDO - sucky dog owner

Me: Please watch and control your dog.
SDO: (annoyed) Dogs are allowed in here.
Me: Yes, but you still need to watch and control them. Most people wouldn't appreciate a strange dog jumping on them.
SDO: Then YOU need to watch out.
Me: Actually it is your responsibility to watch your dog when you bring her into public places like this. Not everyone else's. Your back was completely turned and you weren't even paying attention to her.
SDO: Well, it's not like she bit you.
Me: Technically she did.
SDO: She doesn't know how to bite people!
Me: Actually dogs, especially puppies, explore their world mainly with their mouth. This is one of the many reasons why puppies will put almost anything into their mouth. She jumped up on me, opened her mouth and moved her head so that my hand was in her mouth without me having to move it. While I understand that she's a puppy and is just mouthing, most people would call it a bite. Many other people would have management here and would have called the police by now. The last thing you want on your dog's record is that she bit someone as a puppy.
SDO: Are you a dog trainer?
Me: No but..
SDO: (interrupting) HA! You don't know anything.
Me: As I was saying, no but my wife has been a dog trainer for well over 20 years, is a certified CGC and STAR puppy evaluator, as well as a DVG and USA schutzhund evaluator, a long time breeder, as well as the vice president of a large service dog organization and was just hired by the state to study the coyote population and migration here. I'm the head of a nation-wide breed organization for the UKC and a board member for a national breed club for the AKC. I also work closely with the person who wrote THE book on German shepherds as well as canine hip displaysia. I also have done a lot of volunteer work for malinois rescue and I've also done some volunteer work for the local collie rescue.
SDO: (speechless - then storms off).

(The entire time she's letting her dog run anywhere in the leash's length)

I swear, some people don't even realize the first thing about responsible dog ownership.

Personally, I think both of you over-reacted in that situation: The dog owner for not controlling their "puppy". And... you for stating " Many other people would have management here and would have called the police by now." Oh, please! for mouthing?!?!? Seriously?!?
Just FYI, If you had been actually bitten, then I would be 100% behind your statements.

My $ .02 worth. Just sayin'.......

[Teskeria]

You've got to take into account, wildman, that a lot of people dont know the difference between biting and mouthing. If their mouth closes on you, some people consider that biting. And yeah, they would call the police.

[jnd4rusty]

I like your comeback! That will hopefully teach her to not assume something about someone!

[Squeaksmyalias]

And... you for stating " Many other people would have management here and would have called the police by now." Oh, please! for mouthing?!?!? Seriously?!?

It's absolutely happened before, people have insisted dog's be taken away for things like that. Trust me I'm one of those people who has had to deal with the dog afterward. Heck My last dog was nearly put down for protecting her own yard and her former owner's child. She NEVER went after the child all she did was growl and bark at the intruder. Her former owners who dubbed her dangerous even said so, that's right her owners, who's child she was protecting, said she was dangerous. She was protecting the child from someone entering the yard. If it wasn't for my cousin being there at the right time she would have been a goner.

That owner was completely out of line, her dog needs to keep it's mouth to itself. Draggar was right, she is VERY lucky it was someone who understood the difference between a puppy bite and a regular bite. Also keep in mind some puppy bites can break the skin.
We all know people will call the police about stupid things, it has happened and will happen if there is someone that takes a puppy bite the wrong way.

[Kogarashi]

Simple - Don't reward the behavior. How we're teaching Pollux his inhibition is that if we're plating with him and he nips too hard we give him a loud and short NO and a snarl and then the playtime is over (that all happens in less than 2 seconds).

Huh. Sounds just like what the Hubby and I are going through right now, except that it's our 2-year-old daughter we're trying to teach not to bite. Basically same methods, though.

[Seshat]

Absolutely true, Kogarashi. The principles for teaching humans and the smarter animals are exactly the same. It doesn't even have to be mammals - you can teach octopi tricks using these principles.

Well, not really it was a "puppy mouthing" (where they put something in their mouth but don't bite down) - luckily I know the difference but I'm sure 99% of the people out there don't.

The puppy was lucky it was you!

Still has the occasional but small relapse like when he saw me cause I'm just that awesome, how could you not be happy to see me?

Excitement is a common cause of relapse.

how does one train a dog not to bite, exactly? I'm very interested to know

Simple - Don't reward the behavior. How we're teaching Pollux his inhibition is that if we're plating with him and he nips too hard we give him a loud and short NO and a snarl and then the playtime is over (that all happens in less than 2 seconds).

<snip>

If you learn to read the signs then you can also distract them before they try to bite - with a toy or something else that is appropriate.

All animals - including humans - respond to punishment and to reward. Reward is a kinder method of training than punishment, and tends to 'stick' better.

We trained Vi not to jump on me almost accidentally: I hurt if she jumps on me, so she doesn't get rewarded if she does - instead, she gets the emotional punishment of hearing me yelp in pain, seeing me react to pain.

At the same time, we were deliberately teaching her to 'sit for attention': as in, if she wanted attention, go to the person she wanted attention from, sit at their feet and wait. If not noticed, we let her whine politely, or tap on their leg gently, to let them know she's there. The moment she sat politely and we noticed, or whined/tapped politely, we'd make a biiig fuss over her and tell her what a wonderful dog she was.
If she stood up without permission, barked, or tapped hard, we'd immediately stop paying attention, and pointedly look away.

On her own, she put the two lessons together. She almost always sits for attention for me. If she's really excited about seeing me, she jumps in the air in front of me until she's calmed down enough to sit-for-attention. You can tell she wants to jump on me and make a fuss over me, but she knows it's 'bad'.


But yes, the principles of training that I use are:
* reward good behaviours
* ignore/pointedly ignore bad behaviours
* make bad behaviours impossible (eg, keep yummy-smelling leather shoes in a closed cupboard)
* distract from bad behaviours (you're about to bark? Hey, come play ball instead!)
* if all else fails, punish bad behaviours then as immediately as possible encourage (and reward) a good behaviour.

A sharp 'NO!' can be a punishment. A command that gets rewarded ('look at me!') can be a distraction. Or, as in the case where Vi jumps on me and I hurt, natural consequences can be a punishment.

Edit to add: good behaviours can take a lot of time to develop properly. You may need to reward for a behaviour that resembles the desired behaviour, and then gradually require closer and closer approximations. Or reward a 'stay' that lasts for a second, then five seconds, then ten...

[Catwoman2965]

We have a 200 pound english mastiff, so we went overkill on the whole 'no mouthing' exercises. Now when he wants a toy to squeak instead of biting he will put it on the couch or your lap and jam his nose down quite hard. He will hold the toy in his mouth, but unless it is really easy to squeak he won't make it squeak by biting it.

We knew how big he was gonna get, so better to much training than not enough...

Awww...a big drooly mush! I had one growing up....I LOVE mastiffs. What color? Mine was brindle, and she was on the "small" side at about 130-140 lbs.

I want one!

[Zellie Crescent]

When I was younger Mama Valentine's aunt (crazy bitch) had a dog that was a little...off, one christmas we went over to their house and the dog tried to get my hand when I was trying to get a candy cane so I jerked away and my uncle saw what happened, shouted, ran to me, and stood between scared little self and the dog. CB comes over and asks what happened, I tell her and she says no he went for me because I jerked away. My uncle says he saw what happened, shouted at the dog, and ran over to me. CB called us liars and took the dog into the next room. The rest of the night me and my siblings stayed right by our parents.

[Pedersen]

We trained Vi not to jump on me almost accidentally

You have a dog named Vi? That's perfect! I think I might name my next dog Emacs, though

For those who don't get it: Vi is the name of a text editor used predominantly on the UNIX/Linux operating systems. Emacs is a very different text editor. Flame wars frequently break out on which one is the one true text editor. So, honestly, it is amusing, especially since Seshat wrote a book about a programming tool. She's told me which one, and therefore I know she knows what Vi is, and probably chose the name herself

[draggar]

Personally, I think both of you over-reacted in that situation: The dog owner for not controlling their "puppy". And... you for stating " Many other people would have management here and would have called the police by now." Oh, please! for mouthing?!?!? Seriously?!?
Just FYI, If you had been actually bitten, then I would be 100% behind your statements.

My $ .02 worth. Just sayin'.......

NP but the thing is that you know puppy mouthing, I know puppy mouthing, and I'm willing to bet most of the people on this forum knows it, but more people don't and this dog, while still a puppy, was close to full size. To many people hand in mouth = bite. When they see a dog close to full size they don't think puppy.

Huh. Sounds just like what the Hubby and I are going through right now, except that it's our 2-year-old daughter we're trying to teach not to bite. Basically same methods, though.

Unlike dogs, humans mature (eventually).

[Jetfire]

Unlike dogs, humans mature (eventually).

That's debatable... For both Humans and Dogs. :P

[nicolecj]

Not only was it great of you to do, but that sounds down right adorable!

I would explain how to not teach a dog to bite hard or bite, but Draggar is far more the expert then I am I have a feeling he will explain it much better then I would. I can teach it in person, the explaining is meh.

It is only adorable if he doesn't hurt you. I have seen him tenderly place his squeaky in my fiancee's lap (RIP my love) and jam down as hard as he could, squishing some very tender parts in the process of making the toy make noise. If he can not get it to make noise, you are required to assist or the eardrum blowing noise that he calls a bark starts up. I generally will move the toy to my thigh because I have enough muscle from riding horses to cushion the blow.

Awww...a big drooly mush! I had one growing up....I LOVE mastiffs. What color? Mine was brindle, and she was on the "small" side at about 130-140 lbs
I want one! .

Our first mastiff, Loki, was apricot, a lovely red color. He passed away of a heart attack due to a bad valve at a little over a year old.

My current mastiff, Simon, is fawn. His mother, father, and 8 siblings are all brindle so he was like a little golden chipmunk in the puppy box. I have pictures because it was so adorable. He is spoiled beyond rotten and loves his mommy far to much. It hurts sometimes. I have never been so happy to be covered in drool as I am when he needs a snuggle.

[Seshat]

You have a dog named Vi? That's perfect! I think I might name my next dog Emacs, though

For those who don't get it: Vi is the name of a text editor used predominantly on the UNIX/Linux operating systems. Emacs is a very different text editor. Flame wars frequently break out on which one is the one true text editor. So, honestly, it is amusing, especially since Seshat wrote a book about a programming tool. She's told me which one, and therefore I know she knows what Vi is, and probably chose the name herself

<laughs>

Actually, her full name is Violet, and she's named after my grandmother. She's my best friend/housemate's dog, and the best friend asked if we could name her after my grandmother. (Which was all 'awwww, sweeet').

The fact that her nickname is 'Vi' is just a geeky bonus.

:wq

[chainedbarista]

yes, and mouthers who are not taught to control their habits can turn into biters, which is what lies at the bottom of the issue, i believe.

it sounds like draggars was trying to offer knowledge based advice (rather than opinion based) and it wasn't well received due to the owner's ignorance and stupidity.

it escalated, but the owner created the initial problem; call the police may or may not have been a bit extreme, but i can mentallly picture the owner and it might have been a good idea to let someone with authority handle the issue.

some people won't respect a manager's decision and would require someone with a bit more punch to them.

just my opinion.