Friendly Fraud. [long] [EDIT:happy ending!]

[Ophbalance]

Wow... it surely sounds like douchnozzle has done this before. One would think that a CC company might eventually catch on and say "uhh... there's a pattern here. Pay up you limey bastard."

Be careful on small claims. At least in PA, whether you could go to small claims as a business depended on your accounting model. Mine is based on cash but for some bizarre reason PA required that you be accrual based if you wanted to seek damages on services rendered with no physical good or product delivered. At least that's how it read to me. If you have any lawyer buddies now would be a good time for contacting them .

[thatcrazyredhead]

Nothing about this sounds friendly, Seraph. Even initially when he was pretending to be nice, I'm sure he was just stroking his greasy handlebar mustache and laughing about his dastardly scheme (most likely figuratively rather than literally, although you never know). He is a villain, pure and simple. I hope you find some way to keep your money, and that he winds up tied to the train tracks (literally or figuratively, your choice).

[MoonCat]

Wait, the CC co is claiming there's no proof he got what he ordered? Did I read that right? Even though you have screen shots of him saying "it's perfect", etc? I mean, if he got nothing, then what was perfect?

And regardless of that, is there a way to alert others in your industry to this guy, either by name or by initials, or some identifying info so they can refuse to work with him?

[mhkohne]

I do, actually.

- First, they have to click Accept Estimate, which has a link to my terms/conditions (JF did this)

- Then I generate an Invoice, which states on it, that payment is considered acceptance of the terms. (JF did this, in fact, paid 100% upfront)

- Finally, I get a explicit confirmation from the client, every single time, that the project is complete to their satisfaction. (JF's exact statement: "Its all perfect, there's nothing else, thank you so much"


I am now using a quadruple system after this, which now includes a contract that has to be digitally, or hand signed, whichever method is preferable to the client. The digital signature system I am using is actually one that is considered legally binding, so...hopefully in the future I can just whip the contract out, and get my money back more easily.

Can you sell the debt off to a debt collector? You'd get pennies on the dollar,but the evidence certainly looks good, and you'd have something, and you'd make it someone else's problem.

[XCashier]

I agree with everyone else here. This guy must be reported. He's stealing, threatening people, committing fraud -- all of which are serious crimes. From the way he writes, I suspect sociopathy as well. He seems to take an awful lot of delight in defrauding and threatening people.

I know you're more knowledgeable about your field than any of us are, and I see you're taking the right steps. But this guy has no morals or scruples, he knows how to play the system and jerk people around, and will keep doing so until he's arrested and locked away. What if he decides to take the next step and make good on his threats of physical violence?

[Cia]

How can the c/c company say there's no proof when they can check the website themselves? That's just completely stupid. Plus if the site is taken down by the hosting company they can simply contact them and get the proof from them.

[jedimaster91]

How can the c/c company say there's no proof when they can check the website themselves? That's just completely stupid. Plus if the site is taken down by the hosting company they can simply contact them and get the proof from them.

Because the CC companies are very pro consumer and anti merchant. They get their money either way, but it's the merchants that get screwed.

[cybiko123]

Because the CC companies are very pro consumer and anti merchant. They get their money either way, but it's the merchants that get screwed.

Here's why:

In a retrieval/chargeback situation, the merchant is dealing with the customer's bank. They are the final arbiter. The customer's bank wants to side with the customer for financial reasons.

The only exception to that (in the US, anyway) would be when the customer and the merchant use the same bank (e.g. Discover or American Express cards, or rarely in other cases).

[Seraph]

Wait, the CC co is claiming there's no proof he got what he ordered? Did I read that right? Even though you have screen shots of him saying "it's perfect", etc? I mean, if he got nothing, then what was perfect?

And regardless of that, is there a way to alert others in your industry to this guy, either by name or by initials, or some identifying info so they can refuse to work with him?

Yes, exactly, I have NO idea why they're claiming that...especially with 25 pages of proof.

Oh, I've given out his full name, and his site, to the others in my industry. They know full and well exactly who he is. He's done.

Can you sell the debt off to a debt collector? You'd get pennies on the dollar,but the evidence certainly looks good, and you'd have something, and you'd make it someone else's problem.

I doubt it, but I could try. Honestly, I am thinking if this all fails, small claims.

I agree with everyone else here. This guy must be reported. He's stealing, threatening people, committing fraud -- all of which are serious crimes. From the way he writes, I suspect sociopathy as well. He seems to take an awful lot of delight in defrauding and threatening people.

I know you're more knowledgeable about your field than any of us are, and I see you're taking the right steps. But this guy has no morals or scruples, he knows how to play the system and jerk people around, and will keep doing so until he's arrested and locked away. What if he decides to take the next step and make good on his threats of physical violence?

Sociopath is a good theory. It's extremely fitting of his behavior.

He's been reported as far as I can take it. He's not made direct threats at me, specifically, so I can't do anything about that. I did import to the others who he DID threaten, to go to the police asap. Whether or not they do, is up to them.

[Kagato]

BS like this is why more and more people that I know are getting to the point where they will only do design on the proviso that the site is hosted on servers owned/authorised by them, so that if the client does pull anything like what you have described, they can pull the plug, plus in the contract that the customer signs, there is a clause stating that the license is only valid for approved servers, any other service that hosts the site without the express permission of the designer will be served with a takedown notice - and this must be HAND signed and mailed back before any work progresses.

[eltf177]

I'm glad you reported him to the industry, everybody needs to know what this douche did and he needs to be completely blackballed!

[Jay 2K Winger]

he needs to be completely blackballed!

Appropriately enough, I choose to believe that Ye Lying Scammer's behavior is in part caused by being completely blueballed!

[Silent-Hunter]

BS like this is why more and more people that I know are getting to the point where they will only do design on the proviso that the site is hosted on servers owned/authorised by them, so that if the client does pull anything like what you have described, they can pull the plug, plus in the contract that the customer signs, there is a clause stating that the license is only valid for approved servers, any other service that hosts the site without the express permission of the designer will be served with a takedown notice - and this must be HAND signed and mailed back before any work progresses.

And that's a problem because don't a lot of people who want a site want to host it themselves? I know I would. Still, surely once the person pays in full, that clause is removed?

[KiaKat]

And that's a problem because don't a lot of people who want a site want to host it themselves? I know I would. Still, surely once the person pays in full, that clause is removed?

I imagine you're rather techy.

Most business owners are not. I work for two companies. One, a wine store owned by a Luddite. The other, a web development company that also provides hosting via a branded reseller account.

The store has been trying to develop a website for two years now. My husband (Mr. Web Developer of Awesome) did a custom core, which included a subscription module, an ecommerce module, reporting, integration of payment profiles and a database of our monthly reports, all controllable from an admin panel. The designer cut and run. Twice. Husband did not get paid what he's worth, but that's my fault. Boss & wife are, well, not quite aware of just what sort of deal they got. I am technically the sysadmin, though that mostly involves spam-killing and dealing with email accounts and random tech support issues.

The web development company has a client currently that said "oh, we'll set up the dev environment on our in-house server! Separate SQL server? Nah, we don't need that! Oh, what do you mean the site keeps crashing, now that we've uploaded 10K SKU's?"

Cue facepalms all around.

THIS is why we're trying to get most of our clients on our hosting. Because it gives us control as developers. We can say to the client "this is how it's done," and it happens. We control the versions of SQL and PHP that are installed, we control what is available to our clients, and we can work in an environment that we trust - because WE set it up. Control is everything when it comes to something as specialized as web development, especially in such fraud-filled fields of web development.

[AmbrosiaWriter]

And that's a problem because don't a lot of people who want a site want to host it themselves? I know I would. Still, surely once the person pays in full, that clause is removed?

I would assume not.

Client "pays in full."
Clause is removed.
Client takes all the stuff and puts it on a different server, proceeds to do what the "client" did in the original post: File disputes on the payment to get their money back.