Return the old for something new

[Broomjockey]

One area where sucky customers have a real problem is computer software.
<snip>

But basicily no returns.

Here's what I wonder. If you don't accept the licence agreement, then you can't use the software, and it says return for refund. But stores don't refund opened software, and you can't read the licence agreement without opening the software. So what happens if you don't accept?

[LadyAndreca]

When Target tightened up their return policy this summer, we started getting a LOT of complaints. $100 without a receipt to $40 to $20 was maybe a little drastic, but it's not like *I* can do anything about it.

Why did they have to tighten up the rules? Because our 'guests' were taking merchandise off the sales floor and returning it for store credit, pretty much giving themselves a shopping spree at our expense.

[Naaman]

Hey, I knew you were quoting the customer, and it wasn't your own personal opinion.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Yay, we're all good! Let's get pie

Here's what I wonder. If you don't accept the licence agreement, then you can't use the software, and it says return for refund. But stores don't refund opened software, and you can't read the licence agreement without opening the software. So what happens if you don't accept?

1) The EULA is normally viewable in the companies website, it'll say so on the box "Full T&C available at www.blahblah.com". If they're that anal about checking the license then you can point them there first and probably already know about it.

2) They can e-mail the software company who'll request return with all documentation and receipts, at your cost. They should refund the cash.

Although nothing beats the 14 year old lawyers who try to tell you that the EULA they accept every time an MMO starts is unenforceable

[Broomjockey]

1) The EULA is normally viewable in the companies website, it'll say so on the box "Full T&C available at www.blahblah.com". If they're that anal about checking the license then you can point them there first and probably already know about it.

2) They can e-mail the software company who'll request return with all documentation and receipts, at your cost. They should refund the cash.

Although nothing beats the 14 year old lawyers who try to tell you that the EULA they accept every time an MMO starts is unenforceable

Never actually noticed the "Full T&C blah blah" before Cool, good to know. Not that I'm anal like that. But seriously, anyone ever read the entire terms of MMO EULAs? Geez, talk about crazy.

[Imogene]

Yay, we're all good! Let's get pie

Two quotes come to mind:
"Everybody likes pie!" *said more like: 'Ev'rbahdy laik pai!'*
And "I invented pie."

[Rapscallion]

Never actually noticed the "Full T&C blah blah" before Cool, good to know. Not that I'm anal like that. But seriously, anyone ever read the entire terms of MMO EULAs? Geez, talk about crazy.

Quite a number of EULAs have been upheld as unenforceable simply because they cannot be easily understood. This may be a UK thing, but that's a legal precedent.

Besides, who's going to go to a website to read the EULA and then come back to the store to buy the goods?

The real problem is that companies need to indemnify themselves against monster claims in case sue-happy morons go for them.

Rapscallion

[Naaman]

Quite a number of EULAs have been upheld as unenforceable simply because they cannot be easily understood. This may be a UK thing, but that's a legal precedent.

Not heard of those cases, but then again IINAL . My understanding was that a EULA isn't unenforceable (how else would Blizzard ban the gold farmers?) but certain aspects of it may be. When you enter into a contract you expect reasonable terms on both sides which can be enforced (don't sell gold IRL, no swearing, bullying or *ism on public chat, play nice, servers may go down unexpectedly - no refunds on time, etc). I have a good article bookmarked on my home PC which I'll post a link to later

Besides, who's going to go to a website to read the EULA and then come back to the store to buy the goods?

Whilst it's not something an average gamer would do it's something that should be done when buying for a business, large or small.

The real problem is that companies need to indemnify themselves against monster claims in case sue-happy morons go for them.

Yep

[Rapscallion]

Economics and knowledge.

How many people who insist on swearing are going to know about such a precedent? Most will take a temp ban on the chin and come back - I used to moderate on a MUD with a three-day-freeze system and people almost always came back. Are they really going to take Blizzard to court over a matter whereby they will effectively say, "I want the freedom to swear on your game where it's known there are many minors playing ... why yes, Mr judge, I do see that door to my left..." and pay for it? The US system is that both sides pay for their legal costs and they have to be sued for, so how much is it worth to achieve a right that is seen as morally dubious?

Gold farmers? They have to work on a basis that they could sue for access for terminated accounts, but they could run a court case on the grounds that they should be allowed to perform an action that is well known as illegal in game terms, and thus have a high chance of losing, or they could buy another keycode, go through a different IP address, and get on with the job.

Rapscallion

[Andara Bledin]

Never actually noticed the "Full T&C blah blah" before Cool, good to know. Not that I'm anal like that. But seriously, anyone ever read the entire terms of MMO EULAs? Geez, talk about crazy.

I have. Yes, I'm just that anal that I have taken the time to actually read a few of the EULAs for the MOGs I play. The vast majority involves them not being liable for your computer problems, them not being liable for other players being f*cktards, and where the jurisdiction for any court cases will be. Most online anything terms include that and sometimes a bit more depending on the application.

Gold farmers? They have to work on a basis that they could sue for access for terminated accounts, but they could run a court case on the grounds that they should be allowed to perform an action that is well known as illegal in game terms, and thus have a high chance of losing, or they could buy another keycode, go through a different IP address, and get on with the job.

Most gold farmers are in Asian countries, and they don't use key codes. They go through internet cafes where the cafe has the license for the game, and the players just make accounts. It takes nothing for them to just create a brand new account every time an old one gets banned.

Although nothing beats the 14 year old lawyers who try to tell you that the EULA they accept every time an MMO starts is unenforceable

A large portion of most EULAs is unenforceable, but how much and which parts varies depending on where you are. California, for example, has laws about how contracts that do not allow for negotiation cannot be held in their entirety. While the contract might still be mostly valid, some of the clauses can be argued as being non-binding due to the lack of negotiability.

This has never been tested, however, because neither side of the issue actually wants a precedent set because nobody is really sure which way it will fall.

Another thing that people often forget as regards online games is that when you buy the program (I don't put up with that "lease" bullshit the software companies try to claim), you are only buying the program to run on your computer. Access to the networks that the game plays through is a completely separate service and is governed by a separate contract.

^-.-^

[RichS]

Here's what I wonder. If you don't accept the licence agreement, then you can't use the software, and it says return for refund. But stores don't refund opened software, and you can't read the licence agreement without opening the software. So what happens if you don't accept?

Sorry I took so long (see Off Topic ), but this reminded me of something, and I just found it today.

PC Gamer had an article in their August issue on returning opened games where they disagreed with the EULA terms by contacting the publisher - the short version, they were mostly successful, and some were MMORPG's.

[Broomjockey]

Sorry I took so long (see Off Topic ), but this reminded me of something, and I just found it today.

PC Gamer had an article in their August issue on returning opened games where they disagreed with the EULA terms by contacting the publisher - the short version, they were mostly successful, and some were MMORPG's.

*formulates an evil plan* If a company doesn't take it back, then they're breaking the EULA... and if they break the EULA, then it's void! And you could do WHATEVER! *cues maniacal laughter and dramatic lightning strike*


P.S. I know it wouldn't really work that way. Most likely.