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Now let me be clear here. There's the SC, me, and another customer. The other customer is in no way at fault nor am I blaming him for anything or hold him accountable in any way shape or form.
Fair warning this is a long one and a lot of bg on the oneguy involved thats necessary to understand why he behaved he wah he did.
Warning up front, mentions of ptsd and mental health are a feature of today's episode. I know some people are triggered by others taking advantage/abusing people having a mental health issue. again, to reiterate, I am not holding this man having a mental health crisis accountable or at fault. The SC is the other guy involved.
That said, and obligary warning given, lets get into it.
So to start with we have an old guy, Vietnam vet who was drafted and the left America because of the way he was treated afterwards. So he came to Canada to live, but still has the American flag plastered over his jacket right next to the Canadian one. He also spent some time as a POW and has some understandable issues.
Personally I think he spends as much time at my store not because he's a chocolate addict but because he knows that if he wants to talk I'll listen without judgment. That if he does have an episode he will be treated with respect and dignity, not have the cops called on him to become someone else's problem. He's also happy to do some mopping or whatever small chores because he likes feeling useful even though he's homeless atm. And I certainly don't mind the extra help since the store refuses to staff two ppl as required by law when you're open to the public at night.
Some days are good and he's got that old dark humor the military is known for. He tells all kinds of stories of the shit he and is friends got up to back in the day. Other days he's a mess and can't do more then sit in a corner quietly as his mind shatters around him. Sometimes his stories start out fun and typical of any near adult kid left to their own devices before casually mentioning that the same guy who pretended to be a barracks bunny in a attempt to get escorted off base and thus had an excuse to dodge the draft... also got blown in half in his first week there.
Now it's its important to note that this guy when he's having a bad ptsd episode, is conscious of what's happening around him he just can't control his mind's reaction. He doesn't come out swinging or anything like that. I just put out a chair and keep talking as I work and he eventually regains his emotional balance. It's very clear while he's sitting there that he is going through some shit though. And most people are respectful enough to hold their thoughts to themselves other then the occasional person who asks if I'm alright by myself there or if the can help. I fully understand that most people's only reference/interactions for ptsd or vetrans comes from remembrance day ceremonies and Hollywood.
Most people can keep their opinions to themselves.
Now, since this guy knows I'm from a military family. And that I did my contracted years before getting out on medical due to the stupidity of reporting a TBI. He also knows that I'm not going to panic over a little dark humor or the kinds of stories that freak out the civvies. So I've learned a lot about him both his personal life, and his time spent in the military along with a lot of occasionally graphic stories. As I already said, I'm pretty sure he spends as much time there just to have someone to listen.
Enter the SC
Now, normally I am a firm believer of race not mattering. SC come in all shapes colours sizes and backgrounds. I only mention this here because our veteran is a Vietnam vet and was a POW. Vietnam was not a good place to be an American POW. That he survived at all says a lot about his strength in and of itself. But unfortunately, this SC was Vietnamese or at least Asian who happened to speak Vietnamese as I know enough of the language to get some basic sentences thanks to said veteran.
So our veteran is having his private meltdown in a corner where he can sit on a chair, have a view of the entrance and a decent chunk of the store (I also use the excuse that if he's over there and I'm over here between the two of us we have the store visually covered for shoplifters), and where he can sit with his back against a wall. Cue the SC.
It started with snide comments about "leeches on society" and what should be done about "those useless layabouts". Which probably hit a nerve and I could see him getting worse. I'm not sure if this is triggered his mind to slip back in time given what the Vietnam vets received as their welcome back. I wouldn't be suprised if he had spent a sizable amount of time saying the following when he had just returned home after everything he'd seen. But he tried to explain he was having a ptsd moment given to him curtasy of Uncle Sam. And the usual apoligistic behavior brought on by not wanting to bother anyone or be a burden. He's not btw.
I intervened because I absolutely refuse to allow him, or any veteran, believe they are a burden or whatever else because they have ptsd or mental health issues as a result of their time served. Society owes these men and women a debt and unfortunately they are often treated awfully by those around them, their respective govts, and the same VA that is meant to help them.
I told the SC if he can't respect other people in my store he could leave. Regardless of who that person is or what they are going through, that is no way to treat someone.
I don't know if SC just didn't think either of us would understand what he was saying just because he was speaking Vietnamese, if he defaulted to his native language, or if he genuinely didn't give a damn if we understood or not. But he made the mistake of commenting about how the veteran was just a murderer looking for an excuse and that's why he signed up (he was drafted, he didn't sign up for shit) to fight. That he probably enjoyed it. And something else my Vietnamese isn't good enough to translate.
Now I don't know what the veteran's reply was as he was talking to fast. Remember who taught me? Yeeeeah.
Now I could tell tone. And it wasn't angry, more...explanatory? Heartbroken? Begging? Apologetic? Not sure what would be the best term there but you get the picture. I think a part of him caught up in his own mind had been told so often that he was a terrible person, from when he first came back, that he now believed it. And isn't that an awful thought?
But of course SC had to take it up a notch. Every single insult that had been thrown at returning Vietnam vets was repeated. Plus a few things said his native tongue couldn't translate on the go like that. I suppose an American flag on a Canadian, combined with ptsd and functional Vietnamese, was enough to tell SC where his ptsd originated. But he decided to rampage.
As soon as the first insults left his mouth I knew only one of two reactions was going to play out. This guy was either going to utterly break this man's will to live, or get punched out.
So once I got out of the "you actually said that? out loud? Wtf" shock, beacuse while i intellectually understand that some people are just awful human beings thats a whole new level. I body blocked him and told him to gtfo of my store. Even though, "I'm not allowed to say that to him, that's racist!" which honestly says a lot about SC.
I gave my best impression of a certain individual, and told him to leave in that tone that I knew so well from my shit disturbing infantry days, to "Leave. Now."
It's amazing how quickly they scamper when they realize you aren't intimidated by their threats to call management or in this case, to call the cops. I told him "To go ahead but he was getting tf out of my store. If I had to pick him up and dump him outside I damn well would." Aren't I glad audio isn't recorded on our cameras some days.
He proceeded to yell at me like a small child on the playground who didnt get his way.
I told him I'd heard more creative insults and far more creative "instructions" as well from a certain Sgt back when I was in. I also explained in great detail what some of those "instructions" consisted of while trying to at least not yell.
Of course he ran like the coward he was. I turned to see our veteran just full tremors and got him a bucket jic. Adrenaline is a bitch I am well acquainted with unfortunately. She moonlights with a strap-on and likes to fuck people over sometimes. Checked to see if he was alright after SC tore into him but he was unresponsive.
I decided to give him a few minutes and get him a drink as temperature can be one way to shock the brain back into resetting during or after a ptsd episode. Never was feasible for me personally as the temps needed to achieve that on me tend to be too extreme to be viable. Since normally this guy was lucid during an episode, I didn't quite know what was a safe way to help.
When I returned he was sitting there so I held the cup out and he took it. Which I took as a good sign as it's a conscious action requiring some level of self awareness just to know the drink was offered and to make the decision to reach for it. I figured I'd then just treat it like i always had.
A couple minutes later I realize he's left his chair and wandered over to a wall and thought nothing of it. Then checked again and noticed his pattern of behavior wasn't shopping but clearing. Which was NOT a good sign. It also meant that not only were his actions now out of his control but also that he actively considered the immediate area a potential danger.
Now I have no experience with this level/type of flashback episode beyond the understanding that some ppl have to live like that. Flashbacks yes. From both sides of the divide. But my flashbacks are more strong emotional sensations that I can mostly ignore and override or push through with effort. Or triggered memories where I'm fully cognizant and able to understand that this is the past and therefore cant be changed They aren't full out back in the moment unawareness of time and place like this guy was experiencing. I'm also aware from family of just how dangerous the situation was. Depending on his mental state even interacting with him could unintentionally see me hurt.
Meanwhile SC is still outside on his phone. I simply assuming he's whining to either his parents or a friend about how hard done by the little shit is.
So I locked the door in case he tried to come in and escalated the situation, especially with his race and the recent altercation taken into account. But also to prevent other customers from wandering into a bad situation. At least that was my thought process. Even though I knew locking a former POW in a building during a disassociative episode was also a risk. Especially if he took the loud locking sound as a threat. But I also have two massive doors that are code locked behind me too so I wasn't without options. Both also have rooms that lead outside. I'm also not some soft target, I am capable of defending myself if need be. I just prefer it not to come to that.
I tried to talk to him as I noticed he was becoming more sunk into his memories/mind. Simple things, using military speech patterns in the hopes that it would get through to him since his mind was already there. Trying to tell him that the AO was clear. He didn't need to be doing what he was doing. In hopes that if I could get his mind out of combat mode and merely into standby I could at least get some recognition. I told him I was a friendly and coming on his six. Hoping if he reacted negatively I'd have some time to respond if he needed to turn and I didn't (narrow aisles so I can't get a side approach and figured coming around a corner at the end of an aisle was also a bad move). Since I wasn't getting any response I would call for backup.
Little did I know SC, had called the cops for me. But not to help. He called them on me.
So when the cops rolled up I assumed coffee run or they were doing a drive-by to make sure the store was still standing (bad area. Lots of crime, lots of drug addicts of the bad sort). I made the mistake of withdrawing and going down the next aisle to open the door for the cops not wanting to step in front and give my back to someone not in his right mind and was unsure of whether he considered me a threat, a friendly, or was unaware entirely of my existence. It made tactical sense to me at the time.
I didn't take into account that the way the door sits in relation to the aisles meant that when I took the shortest path to the door I could trigger him. Came around the far side of the aisle hoping to spot him at the end before exposing myself. Turned out between telling him what I'd be doing and actually doing it he blanked out. And to him, hearing footsteps in the next aisle must have construed a threat. So when I took a peak, he was already down low and moved faster then a man his age aught to be capable of. Caught me in the stomach with the full momentum of his movement.
Thankfully I was able to call out friendly friendly friendly. But that's going to leave a hell of a bruise later. Cops took that as a reason to break the glass door. I'm just glad that because of our position they didn't just shoot since they risked hitting me. Our cops are known to be a little trigger happy sometimes. I don't know if i got through to him and that's why he didn't follow up right away or if the cops having him on the ground quickly after that simply prevented him from following up. There was certainly time enough to get in a good amount of damage had he wanted to. Our doors may be cheap af but it takes a few moments to bash them in enough to get through. I've had enough asshole druggies/shoplifters do so after locking them out.
SC was of course egging the cops on and telling his version of the story. Telling them that they should shoot him so that I'd be safe, which I think we can all agree he didn't give a shit for my safety given his previous actions. I was trying to explain the man was a veteran in a full provoked ptsd disassociative episode. You can imagine how well he reacted to being tossed on the ground and restrained.
Of course SC decided to interfere and "accidently" almost kicked the guy as he was down. Only the officer getting conveniently "in the way" aborted his attempt. Even an asshole SC won't hit a cop. I did inform the officers that SC had already been kicked out and was now trespassing which technically would have just seen him told to just leave under normal circumstances. But they decided to arrest him instead.
Apparently he was known to waste personnel time so they got him on a bunch of minor stuff like tying up the emergency lines and false reporting a crime etc. Basically any technicalities they could legally find that would otherwise be just a lecture and don't do that again.
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I just dont know if there was anything more i could have done to prevent escalation. He's normally such a good guy that life and ppl shit on so this has never come up before. They had to medicate him to get him to a level that he wasn't at risk of hurting himself or others in his struggles. Regardless of how much of a Hollywood trope it is, a complete disassociative episode to that degree of intensity and ability aren't common. Our VA center is next to useless. And I've lost to many people to the emotional and psychological damage being a veteran leaves you with. I get that a civilian can only empathize but never truely understand. Well. Aside from maybe civilian contractors who see the affects it leaves.
I'm hoping that when he comes out the other side of this he doesn't sign up for the Remington retirement plan given everything that must have brought up enough to disassociate that much when he's not prone to doing so. Any ideas on improvement, what I could have done differently? And how should I handle the future when he shows back up? What steps can I take to let him know I don't hold him at fault or any way responsible. Nor is he lessened in my esteem of him just because he had a worse reaction this time or that he came up swinging. I fully understand that someone having a disassociative episode may very well turn violent and considered it a acceptable risk to myself. If he comes back at all.
I can't help but wonder how someone can say that shit to another person and not understand that that is the exact kind of shit that sends people to take the long nap option when they eventually break.
Fair warning this is a long one and a lot of bg on the oneguy involved thats necessary to understand why he behaved he wah he did.
Warning up front, mentions of ptsd and mental health are a feature of today's episode. I know some people are triggered by others taking advantage/abusing people having a mental health issue. again, to reiterate, I am not holding this man having a mental health crisis accountable or at fault. The SC is the other guy involved.
That said, and obligary warning given, lets get into it.
So to start with we have an old guy, Vietnam vet who was drafted and the left America because of the way he was treated afterwards. So he came to Canada to live, but still has the American flag plastered over his jacket right next to the Canadian one. He also spent some time as a POW and has some understandable issues.
Personally I think he spends as much time at my store not because he's a chocolate addict but because he knows that if he wants to talk I'll listen without judgment. That if he does have an episode he will be treated with respect and dignity, not have the cops called on him to become someone else's problem. He's also happy to do some mopping or whatever small chores because he likes feeling useful even though he's homeless atm. And I certainly don't mind the extra help since the store refuses to staff two ppl as required by law when you're open to the public at night.
Some days are good and he's got that old dark humor the military is known for. He tells all kinds of stories of the shit he and is friends got up to back in the day. Other days he's a mess and can't do more then sit in a corner quietly as his mind shatters around him. Sometimes his stories start out fun and typical of any near adult kid left to their own devices before casually mentioning that the same guy who pretended to be a barracks bunny in a attempt to get escorted off base and thus had an excuse to dodge the draft... also got blown in half in his first week there.
Now it's its important to note that this guy when he's having a bad ptsd episode, is conscious of what's happening around him he just can't control his mind's reaction. He doesn't come out swinging or anything like that. I just put out a chair and keep talking as I work and he eventually regains his emotional balance. It's very clear while he's sitting there that he is going through some shit though. And most people are respectful enough to hold their thoughts to themselves other then the occasional person who asks if I'm alright by myself there or if the can help. I fully understand that most people's only reference/interactions for ptsd or vetrans comes from remembrance day ceremonies and Hollywood.
Most people can keep their opinions to themselves.
Now, since this guy knows I'm from a military family. And that I did my contracted years before getting out on medical due to the stupidity of reporting a TBI. He also knows that I'm not going to panic over a little dark humor or the kinds of stories that freak out the civvies. So I've learned a lot about him both his personal life, and his time spent in the military along with a lot of occasionally graphic stories. As I already said, I'm pretty sure he spends as much time there just to have someone to listen.
Enter the SC
Now, normally I am a firm believer of race not mattering. SC come in all shapes colours sizes and backgrounds. I only mention this here because our veteran is a Vietnam vet and was a POW. Vietnam was not a good place to be an American POW. That he survived at all says a lot about his strength in and of itself. But unfortunately, this SC was Vietnamese or at least Asian who happened to speak Vietnamese as I know enough of the language to get some basic sentences thanks to said veteran.
So our veteran is having his private meltdown in a corner where he can sit on a chair, have a view of the entrance and a decent chunk of the store (I also use the excuse that if he's over there and I'm over here between the two of us we have the store visually covered for shoplifters), and where he can sit with his back against a wall. Cue the SC.
It started with snide comments about "leeches on society" and what should be done about "those useless layabouts". Which probably hit a nerve and I could see him getting worse. I'm not sure if this is triggered his mind to slip back in time given what the Vietnam vets received as their welcome back. I wouldn't be suprised if he had spent a sizable amount of time saying the following when he had just returned home after everything he'd seen. But he tried to explain he was having a ptsd moment given to him curtasy of Uncle Sam. And the usual apoligistic behavior brought on by not wanting to bother anyone or be a burden. He's not btw.
I intervened because I absolutely refuse to allow him, or any veteran, believe they are a burden or whatever else because they have ptsd or mental health issues as a result of their time served. Society owes these men and women a debt and unfortunately they are often treated awfully by those around them, their respective govts, and the same VA that is meant to help them.
I told the SC if he can't respect other people in my store he could leave. Regardless of who that person is or what they are going through, that is no way to treat someone.
I don't know if SC just didn't think either of us would understand what he was saying just because he was speaking Vietnamese, if he defaulted to his native language, or if he genuinely didn't give a damn if we understood or not. But he made the mistake of commenting about how the veteran was just a murderer looking for an excuse and that's why he signed up (he was drafted, he didn't sign up for shit) to fight. That he probably enjoyed it. And something else my Vietnamese isn't good enough to translate.
Now I don't know what the veteran's reply was as he was talking to fast. Remember who taught me? Yeeeeah.
Now I could tell tone. And it wasn't angry, more...explanatory? Heartbroken? Begging? Apologetic? Not sure what would be the best term there but you get the picture. I think a part of him caught up in his own mind had been told so often that he was a terrible person, from when he first came back, that he now believed it. And isn't that an awful thought?
But of course SC had to take it up a notch. Every single insult that had been thrown at returning Vietnam vets was repeated. Plus a few things said his native tongue couldn't translate on the go like that. I suppose an American flag on a Canadian, combined with ptsd and functional Vietnamese, was enough to tell SC where his ptsd originated. But he decided to rampage.
As soon as the first insults left his mouth I knew only one of two reactions was going to play out. This guy was either going to utterly break this man's will to live, or get punched out.
So once I got out of the "you actually said that? out loud? Wtf" shock, beacuse while i intellectually understand that some people are just awful human beings thats a whole new level. I body blocked him and told him to gtfo of my store. Even though, "I'm not allowed to say that to him, that's racist!" which honestly says a lot about SC.
I gave my best impression of a certain individual, and told him to leave in that tone that I knew so well from my shit disturbing infantry days, to "Leave. Now."
It's amazing how quickly they scamper when they realize you aren't intimidated by their threats to call management or in this case, to call the cops. I told him "To go ahead but he was getting tf out of my store. If I had to pick him up and dump him outside I damn well would." Aren't I glad audio isn't recorded on our cameras some days.
He proceeded to yell at me like a small child on the playground who didnt get his way.
I told him I'd heard more creative insults and far more creative "instructions" as well from a certain Sgt back when I was in. I also explained in great detail what some of those "instructions" consisted of while trying to at least not yell.
Of course he ran like the coward he was. I turned to see our veteran just full tremors and got him a bucket jic. Adrenaline is a bitch I am well acquainted with unfortunately. She moonlights with a strap-on and likes to fuck people over sometimes. Checked to see if he was alright after SC tore into him but he was unresponsive.
I decided to give him a few minutes and get him a drink as temperature can be one way to shock the brain back into resetting during or after a ptsd episode. Never was feasible for me personally as the temps needed to achieve that on me tend to be too extreme to be viable. Since normally this guy was lucid during an episode, I didn't quite know what was a safe way to help.
When I returned he was sitting there so I held the cup out and he took it. Which I took as a good sign as it's a conscious action requiring some level of self awareness just to know the drink was offered and to make the decision to reach for it. I figured I'd then just treat it like i always had.
A couple minutes later I realize he's left his chair and wandered over to a wall and thought nothing of it. Then checked again and noticed his pattern of behavior wasn't shopping but clearing. Which was NOT a good sign. It also meant that not only were his actions now out of his control but also that he actively considered the immediate area a potential danger.
Now I have no experience with this level/type of flashback episode beyond the understanding that some ppl have to live like that. Flashbacks yes. From both sides of the divide. But my flashbacks are more strong emotional sensations that I can mostly ignore and override or push through with effort. Or triggered memories where I'm fully cognizant and able to understand that this is the past and therefore cant be changed They aren't full out back in the moment unawareness of time and place like this guy was experiencing. I'm also aware from family of just how dangerous the situation was. Depending on his mental state even interacting with him could unintentionally see me hurt.
Meanwhile SC is still outside on his phone. I simply assuming he's whining to either his parents or a friend about how hard done by the little shit is.
So I locked the door in case he tried to come in and escalated the situation, especially with his race and the recent altercation taken into account. But also to prevent other customers from wandering into a bad situation. At least that was my thought process. Even though I knew locking a former POW in a building during a disassociative episode was also a risk. Especially if he took the loud locking sound as a threat. But I also have two massive doors that are code locked behind me too so I wasn't without options. Both also have rooms that lead outside. I'm also not some soft target, I am capable of defending myself if need be. I just prefer it not to come to that.
I tried to talk to him as I noticed he was becoming more sunk into his memories/mind. Simple things, using military speech patterns in the hopes that it would get through to him since his mind was already there. Trying to tell him that the AO was clear. He didn't need to be doing what he was doing. In hopes that if I could get his mind out of combat mode and merely into standby I could at least get some recognition. I told him I was a friendly and coming on his six. Hoping if he reacted negatively I'd have some time to respond if he needed to turn and I didn't (narrow aisles so I can't get a side approach and figured coming around a corner at the end of an aisle was also a bad move). Since I wasn't getting any response I would call for backup.
Little did I know SC, had called the cops for me. But not to help. He called them on me.
So when the cops rolled up I assumed coffee run or they were doing a drive-by to make sure the store was still standing (bad area. Lots of crime, lots of drug addicts of the bad sort). I made the mistake of withdrawing and going down the next aisle to open the door for the cops not wanting to step in front and give my back to someone not in his right mind and was unsure of whether he considered me a threat, a friendly, or was unaware entirely of my existence. It made tactical sense to me at the time.
I didn't take into account that the way the door sits in relation to the aisles meant that when I took the shortest path to the door I could trigger him. Came around the far side of the aisle hoping to spot him at the end before exposing myself. Turned out between telling him what I'd be doing and actually doing it he blanked out. And to him, hearing footsteps in the next aisle must have construed a threat. So when I took a peak, he was already down low and moved faster then a man his age aught to be capable of. Caught me in the stomach with the full momentum of his movement.
Thankfully I was able to call out friendly friendly friendly. But that's going to leave a hell of a bruise later. Cops took that as a reason to break the glass door. I'm just glad that because of our position they didn't just shoot since they risked hitting me. Our cops are known to be a little trigger happy sometimes. I don't know if i got through to him and that's why he didn't follow up right away or if the cops having him on the ground quickly after that simply prevented him from following up. There was certainly time enough to get in a good amount of damage had he wanted to. Our doors may be cheap af but it takes a few moments to bash them in enough to get through. I've had enough asshole druggies/shoplifters do so after locking them out.
SC was of course egging the cops on and telling his version of the story. Telling them that they should shoot him so that I'd be safe, which I think we can all agree he didn't give a shit for my safety given his previous actions. I was trying to explain the man was a veteran in a full provoked ptsd disassociative episode. You can imagine how well he reacted to being tossed on the ground and restrained.
Of course SC decided to interfere and "accidently" almost kicked the guy as he was down. Only the officer getting conveniently "in the way" aborted his attempt. Even an asshole SC won't hit a cop. I did inform the officers that SC had already been kicked out and was now trespassing which technically would have just seen him told to just leave under normal circumstances. But they decided to arrest him instead.
Apparently he was known to waste personnel time so they got him on a bunch of minor stuff like tying up the emergency lines and false reporting a crime etc. Basically any technicalities they could legally find that would otherwise be just a lecture and don't do that again.
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I just dont know if there was anything more i could have done to prevent escalation. He's normally such a good guy that life and ppl shit on so this has never come up before. They had to medicate him to get him to a level that he wasn't at risk of hurting himself or others in his struggles. Regardless of how much of a Hollywood trope it is, a complete disassociative episode to that degree of intensity and ability aren't common. Our VA center is next to useless. And I've lost to many people to the emotional and psychological damage being a veteran leaves you with. I get that a civilian can only empathize but never truely understand. Well. Aside from maybe civilian contractors who see the affects it leaves.
I'm hoping that when he comes out the other side of this he doesn't sign up for the Remington retirement plan given everything that must have brought up enough to disassociate that much when he's not prone to doing so. Any ideas on improvement, what I could have done differently? And how should I handle the future when he shows back up? What steps can I take to let him know I don't hold him at fault or any way responsible. Nor is he lessened in my esteem of him just because he had a worse reaction this time or that he came up swinging. I fully understand that someone having a disassociative episode may very well turn violent and considered it a acceptable risk to myself. If he comes back at all.
I can't help but wonder how someone can say that shit to another person and not understand that that is the exact kind of shit that sends people to take the long nap option when they eventually break.
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