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OK LONGGGG post warning.
This all started in August 2024. No real names, I'll just call them the Kettermans, if you watched Better call Saul they match exactly. I posted this on a gun forum before here who knows the terms better, I did try to fix it for the wider readers on here.
You wonder why fewer and fewer gun dealers are taking online transfers, and the few that do charge more and more?
This is why- and places that are like Buds, grab a gun, undercutting LGS so much they even refuse to take their transfers is also a factor. Then there's this BS.
So end of August I got a call from this old guy we will call Mr Kettermen. He is looking for an RRA (Rock River Arms) varmint model and has the model # handy, and asked if I carry RRA.
So far all is well, nice when people know exactly what they are looking for. I can order from them but they show B/O for it. He also didn't like the price. OK, I checked a distributor, price is better, but also B/O and MR K doesn't want to wait. He says he checked with RRA and it would be a few weeks min. I was like OK if you talked to them, why are you sweating me? He wanted to know if any other shops around carry RRA.. I said I was not sure, and I really don't think any shops would have that in stock, not much demand for a prairie dog gun in eastern PA.(Even RRA makes them on order). These calls go for a couple of days. Leading up to him found it online, and do I do transfers? I say yes, how much, and how it works .So I never heard of this board he got it, told me this guy has it in Fla for like new, and the price.
So then he asked if I thought the $ was ok, sure, for retail it was ok. Do I think the seller will screw him over? I'm like, what the hell do I know? He says that's fine, he knows a lawyer. (I should have cut bait at this point; it made my Spidey senses tingle)
This guy says he's in his 70's and this is not a common NEPA kind of gun- why the hurry? But hey, whatever. MrK orders if from a guy in FLA off of guns international.
Sept '24
He lets me know his* gun is on it's way and should be up that Saturday.(*This is key every time he referred to it- he used "his")I let him know I was going to be at a gunshow but my son could sign for it or I'll be home Monday to accept it.
He says his wife MrsK will pick it up. I Of course say, no you ordered it you have to get it. He goes on about his age and starts to say he doesn’t feel good and may be getting sick. I tell him sorry, but thems the rules, I'll hold it till he's feeling better few days /weeks, no extra charge.
The rifle shows up, and my son signs for it, and I do the paperwork AM Monday and call him.
The cheese slides off the cracker...
He again insists MRSK will get it, again I say no, he says I have to, she's his wife, she will pass the check, and I have to transfer it to her. Quote Luke- everything you just said was wrong.
We go back and forth, he's getting louder and insists I then take it to local outdoors shop cause they did them for him in the past, but the fee's now too much. Well, thanks to him, now mine is the same. I'm like, humm I bet they weren't thinking what I am.
So I say OK I'll do that.
I go over there and talk to the firearms MGR, and is seemed MRK had called ahead and admitted my sus. He's a felon. They promptly blacklist him. MrK also name-dropped a few other dealers he's dealt with who I know personally, and I reached out to them, and they later called ATF/PSP. (Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives/PA State Police)
OK the fun begins.
I get him, and MRS K calls for the 1st time. She repeats the BS that I have to see it to her, and it's her gun. Well, your name is not on it, he said it's his and never mentioned it was a present, and oh I know about his past and should not be involved in anyway in this, so I will under no condition transferring this gun to you, him, or the horse you rode in on. You have 2 choices: 1- get me a return UPS label and I send it back, or 2-sell your story or gun to a dealer who might believe your BS.
She hangs up mad. Time for my call to the PSP firearms Det. Sadly, I have her cell from a jackhole I dealt with that spring who's now in FED lockup.
I tell her what happened, she's very interested. Do I have a full name and address, no I don't. OK, she says IF they call back, try to get it and call her. I say OK I'll have that for you tomorrow, she's like again don't call them, they could say it was a set up. Oh I won't I'm sure they will call me.
Next day – yep she calls back. MRK shuts up at this point on. She starts ranting about how she talked to "gun control experts and law enforcement" I have to sell this to her cause she will pass the BGC.*sigh sure you did.
I say ok you know what you want to do this, fine, can I have your full name and addr to start the forms, and is next day, Wednesday, 11 September, good for you?1600 ? ok see you then.
Cue PSP call – the Det is very into it and says she might have to get the ATF in on the action. She says to see of MrsK will complete the crime and fill out the 4473, have her do it, but she's going to be put on hold so they can decide what to do.
Mrs K shows up.
My shop in the basement got flooded so I was really a kitchen table dealer at this time. I told my son who was upstairs after she comes in, slide out the front door and grab an pic of he car and plate.( he does this w/o her seeing him but heard him)
What does she do as soon as she sees "her" gun? Take and text pics of it to someone.
(at this point I thought I was getting set up in a sting with the straw purchase red flags they were waving) I say it's his gun, he ordered several times and she never corrects me.
Oh surprise surprise, your BGC was put on hold for 14 days. I explain the process and send her home. Then email the forms to the PSP.
We're from the government and we're here to help-
So the ATF enters the chat. They take almost the full 2 weeks to come up with a great plan. They want to know if I'm willing to let them interview her under the guise of coming to pick up the gun.(I should have said no)But I thought it might be entertaining to see so I did say on. Kettermens ears must of been burring cause not 5 min later she calls me to ask what's up. I simply say to come get it. She didn't ask about the BGC and I was to say nothing anyway.
PT2 the showdown
Arrangements are made and the PSP and ATF show up. We go over things and hang out in my driveway. She shows and there out their for 45min.I'm in the garage acting like I'm working on my IROC but don't hear anything. Well they leave and she shows up at my front door like that just didn't happen and wants the gun.
I'm completely WTF! They didn't say shit to me. I frankly text the PSP and call they tell me she stone walled them. Insisted it was hers and refused to go back to the station for more interview so they gave up and left.
At this point I knew he was buying it and after some statements from her were going to sell it to someone else. I was mad. I also didn't have a pics approval # and well if they won't do anything I will- or more the to the point won't.
I let her know again way to much heat is on here.3 feds and 2 PSP, NO fucking way am I giving her this. She's a liar and I'm not risking my lic livelihood and freedom.
She has 1 option. Get some other dealer to do it. Either sell it to them or again get them to take the risk on her lie. Also I don't want your gun so don't ask me to pay you for it cause you won't like the offer. If she needs a list of local dealers I can help but that's it.(like any honest dealer would do it) She goes and I don't hear anything for almost 2 weeks. I was thinking of calling her and checking but was interrupted by some gentle cop knocking.
O-no, O-NO, o—yo-yo, NO YOU DIDN'T*cue Mercenaries 2 song
It's my friendly town Constable with a paper.
"gee Bob you wouldn't sell these nice people their gun?"( we know each other)
Yes after dodging getting arrested these 6-7 winners decided to sue ME for it.
Not just me, also my Wife oh and and plain old trigger time. Humm I am a LLC how the fuck are they doing this? He loled and said please keep me updated.
She just hand wrote a lawsuit for $1,275 that I can't really read but it just repeated her delusional thought I was under any obligation to transfer this.
Mind you as a dealer I refuse to transfer for any and all reasons, well except for protected ones. But they didn't right is a valid reason. The customer is not always right.
OK You want to play in Dist court with a judge I know..
Al Bundy- Let's Rock.
Oct 24
I don't just plan on winning- I'm going to make them admit under oath the law they broke.
So I talk to the dealer in FLA and the seller who confirm he's the buyer. But the seller didn't want to do a statement and after the Kettermens called also he quit answering. I was a little miffed but understand.
I then subpoenaed Mr K cause I knew it would piss him off and they like to talk too much.
I also subpoenaed the PSP Det. In dist court there is not a recorder so I wanted a good witness and hopefully someone to take action. I was wrong. More on that later.
I wanted to post this then but again it's best after I also didn't contact a lawyer cause she was representing herself I know I can.
I filed my intent to defend and got ready.
Found out I'm not the 1st or second place they have sued. The staff at the courthouse "knew" them and kind of said they couldn't believe they were pulling this BS.
I had my buddy the serve him and I saw the det.
My cousin Vinny comes to Saylorsburg
Nov 24
Dude I was so amped up I was reverberating at 400hz.
I'll try to keep this simple but there's so much and I still giggle.
She goes first then I can ask her questions. Then I go and she asks me questions and I call my witnesses. I ask them them and then she can. She didn't call any and I knew she wanted to keep him out of it but there's no fun in that.
Mrs Ketterman's statement had these gems-
1- I took weeks, almost a month to let them know I had the gun
2- I was selling guns on my kitchen table and there was *gasp food also on the table.
3- I had a child running around the house she hear the little boy running and guns were out.
4- I'm just trying to keep it for myself.
5- It was for her she collects from time to time cause her dad worked for Remington.
Only reason he call was she was too busy at work
6- She was told by the PSP she could get it so I have to give it to her.
I had trouble at first keeping my statements back in the form of a question but I quickly got over my excitement and channeled my inner Vinny.
So I come back
1- did he call me 9/5-9/6 to say it would be in that weekend?-yea
Did I call him that Monday the 9th and did you call me on both the 9th and 10th?
-yea
According to the signed 4473 (the federal form for gun transfers) you did that on the 11th, how is that a month?-ahhh
So it wasn't?Yea
2- yea the shop was usable and what do you kneep on your table?
3- ahhh that "child" is 20, in Navy bootcamp and can legally own the rifle unlike your husband.
4- no I gave you options, they still stand and this court can't change that, and I won't buy it off you
5- funny I'm a FFL and worked full time and do 95 % of the calls. Plus he called after 6 at first and today I called it his rifle and you didn't challenge it. How are you going to posess it with a prohibited person in the house?-2nd house.
6- yes the PSP did give a PICS approval # the day after, I couldn't give you it that day cause I didn't have it, and well I don't trust you and after you never called back and served me, why should I?
She wouldn't say exactly why she bought it and did admit to buying several other guns from other places.
GRU- "My Turn"
Right away showed my LLC reg with the state and how she can't sue us personally and the whole suit was in bad faith.
Recaped above, added she didn't realize I called the cops, she really thought they just happened to be there. LOL
Also entered the shipping doc with his name and cell and 4473.That she checked off every step in the straw purchase handbook and as a dealer I can tank a transfer for almost any reason. Even IF the state still ok's it.
She tries to ask me questions. The whole time MrK is telling her what to ask or how to respond to my questions when I was asking. Yea you can't do that. But everytime he did it made them look worse so I didn't object. Finally it was too much and the judge shut him down. He got a little miffed when she reminded him he was only there to be a witness-for me.
I put him on the stand. By this time I wore down their defences.In the course of questioning him I get him to walk back all her statements, he did call FLA and wired the money and she just does the paperwork. He getting mad and says I'm blocking his 2A rights. Er you don't have any. Felony device access kills that even if it is old.
Re rants he;s got to get the Gov to expunge it cause it's over 20 years old...oh and the M2 for reckless endangerment that punishable by jail up to 2 years that also a DQ that you got convicted of 3 years ago- what about that?
Muttering
Now for the best part.
She questions him. What did we buy that gun for?
Him- because we were selling it also
The needle scratches over the record playing in my brain, WAIT WHAT?!
Yes we just got it to sell, not to do anything with it.
I look at the judge about yell and she on cue, picks up the 4473 holds it up and looks at them and says, you know you just admitted to falsifying this under oath?
There he's like were allowed to sell guns also.
She reads the question on the form. No not like this.
At this point I say it's a federal offense to lie to me or on that and with that admission this should be moved to criminal court and I cannot transfer that gun-.
"I'm done with this guy"
I put the cop up to confirm the laws.
So needless to say I won.
She threw out the cases on us personally and in whole.
But did leave it open to appeal.
We then talked off the record were I again explained the options.
Mr Kettermen was pissed and said they were going to appeal and get a lawyer.
I just looked at him, and said- up until now I've been extremely nice about this and I don't have much money on this. BUT I warn you IF you want to go full send and do that I WILL SUE you back. I suggest you look up Dragonetti act. Your last suits were simple, yes I know about them. I'm again warning you I will fight back and despite that you think -you are wrong.
Sadly
But wait there's more....
This all started in August 2024. No real names, I'll just call them the Kettermans, if you watched Better call Saul they match exactly. I posted this on a gun forum before here who knows the terms better, I did try to fix it for the wider readers on here.
You wonder why fewer and fewer gun dealers are taking online transfers, and the few that do charge more and more?
This is why- and places that are like Buds, grab a gun, undercutting LGS so much they even refuse to take their transfers is also a factor. Then there's this BS.
So end of August I got a call from this old guy we will call Mr Kettermen. He is looking for an RRA (Rock River Arms) varmint model and has the model # handy, and asked if I carry RRA.
So far all is well, nice when people know exactly what they are looking for. I can order from them but they show B/O for it. He also didn't like the price. OK, I checked a distributor, price is better, but also B/O and MR K doesn't want to wait. He says he checked with RRA and it would be a few weeks min. I was like OK if you talked to them, why are you sweating me? He wanted to know if any other shops around carry RRA.. I said I was not sure, and I really don't think any shops would have that in stock, not much demand for a prairie dog gun in eastern PA.(Even RRA makes them on order). These calls go for a couple of days. Leading up to him found it online, and do I do transfers? I say yes, how much, and how it works .So I never heard of this board he got it, told me this guy has it in Fla for like new, and the price.
So then he asked if I thought the $ was ok, sure, for retail it was ok. Do I think the seller will screw him over? I'm like, what the hell do I know? He says that's fine, he knows a lawyer. (I should have cut bait at this point; it made my Spidey senses tingle)
This guy says he's in his 70's and this is not a common NEPA kind of gun- why the hurry? But hey, whatever. MrK orders if from a guy in FLA off of guns international.
Sept '24
He lets me know his* gun is on it's way and should be up that Saturday.(*This is key every time he referred to it- he used "his")I let him know I was going to be at a gunshow but my son could sign for it or I'll be home Monday to accept it.
He says his wife MrsK will pick it up. I Of course say, no you ordered it you have to get it. He goes on about his age and starts to say he doesn’t feel good and may be getting sick. I tell him sorry, but thems the rules, I'll hold it till he's feeling better few days /weeks, no extra charge.
The rifle shows up, and my son signs for it, and I do the paperwork AM Monday and call him.
The cheese slides off the cracker...
He again insists MRSK will get it, again I say no, he says I have to, she's his wife, she will pass the check, and I have to transfer it to her. Quote Luke- everything you just said was wrong.
We go back and forth, he's getting louder and insists I then take it to local outdoors shop cause they did them for him in the past, but the fee's now too much. Well, thanks to him, now mine is the same. I'm like, humm I bet they weren't thinking what I am.
So I say OK I'll do that.
I go over there and talk to the firearms MGR, and is seemed MRK had called ahead and admitted my sus. He's a felon. They promptly blacklist him. MrK also name-dropped a few other dealers he's dealt with who I know personally, and I reached out to them, and they later called ATF/PSP. (Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives/PA State Police)
OK the fun begins.
I get him, and MRS K calls for the 1st time. She repeats the BS that I have to see it to her, and it's her gun. Well, your name is not on it, he said it's his and never mentioned it was a present, and oh I know about his past and should not be involved in anyway in this, so I will under no condition transferring this gun to you, him, or the horse you rode in on. You have 2 choices: 1- get me a return UPS label and I send it back, or 2-sell your story or gun to a dealer who might believe your BS.
She hangs up mad. Time for my call to the PSP firearms Det. Sadly, I have her cell from a jackhole I dealt with that spring who's now in FED lockup.
I tell her what happened, she's very interested. Do I have a full name and address, no I don't. OK, she says IF they call back, try to get it and call her. I say OK I'll have that for you tomorrow, she's like again don't call them, they could say it was a set up. Oh I won't I'm sure they will call me.
Next day – yep she calls back. MRK shuts up at this point on. She starts ranting about how she talked to "gun control experts and law enforcement" I have to sell this to her cause she will pass the BGC.*sigh sure you did.
I say ok you know what you want to do this, fine, can I have your full name and addr to start the forms, and is next day, Wednesday, 11 September, good for you?1600 ? ok see you then.
Cue PSP call – the Det is very into it and says she might have to get the ATF in on the action. She says to see of MrsK will complete the crime and fill out the 4473, have her do it, but she's going to be put on hold so they can decide what to do.
Mrs K shows up.
My shop in the basement got flooded so I was really a kitchen table dealer at this time. I told my son who was upstairs after she comes in, slide out the front door and grab an pic of he car and plate.( he does this w/o her seeing him but heard him)
What does she do as soon as she sees "her" gun? Take and text pics of it to someone.
(at this point I thought I was getting set up in a sting with the straw purchase red flags they were waving) I say it's his gun, he ordered several times and she never corrects me.
Oh surprise surprise, your BGC was put on hold for 14 days. I explain the process and send her home. Then email the forms to the PSP.
We're from the government and we're here to help-
So the ATF enters the chat. They take almost the full 2 weeks to come up with a great plan. They want to know if I'm willing to let them interview her under the guise of coming to pick up the gun.(I should have said no)But I thought it might be entertaining to see so I did say on. Kettermens ears must of been burring cause not 5 min later she calls me to ask what's up. I simply say to come get it. She didn't ask about the BGC and I was to say nothing anyway.
PT2 the showdown
Arrangements are made and the PSP and ATF show up. We go over things and hang out in my driveway. She shows and there out their for 45min.I'm in the garage acting like I'm working on my IROC but don't hear anything. Well they leave and she shows up at my front door like that just didn't happen and wants the gun.
I'm completely WTF! They didn't say shit to me. I frankly text the PSP and call they tell me she stone walled them. Insisted it was hers and refused to go back to the station for more interview so they gave up and left.
At this point I knew he was buying it and after some statements from her were going to sell it to someone else. I was mad. I also didn't have a pics approval # and well if they won't do anything I will- or more the to the point won't.
I let her know again way to much heat is on here.3 feds and 2 PSP, NO fucking way am I giving her this. She's a liar and I'm not risking my lic livelihood and freedom.
She has 1 option. Get some other dealer to do it. Either sell it to them or again get them to take the risk on her lie. Also I don't want your gun so don't ask me to pay you for it cause you won't like the offer. If she needs a list of local dealers I can help but that's it.(like any honest dealer would do it) She goes and I don't hear anything for almost 2 weeks. I was thinking of calling her and checking but was interrupted by some gentle cop knocking.
O-no, O-NO, o—yo-yo, NO YOU DIDN'T*cue Mercenaries 2 song
It's my friendly town Constable with a paper.
"gee Bob you wouldn't sell these nice people their gun?"( we know each other)
Yes after dodging getting arrested these 6-7 winners decided to sue ME for it.
Not just me, also my Wife oh and and plain old trigger time. Humm I am a LLC how the fuck are they doing this? He loled and said please keep me updated.
She just hand wrote a lawsuit for $1,275 that I can't really read but it just repeated her delusional thought I was under any obligation to transfer this.
Mind you as a dealer I refuse to transfer for any and all reasons, well except for protected ones. But they didn't right is a valid reason. The customer is not always right.
OK You want to play in Dist court with a judge I know..
Al Bundy- Let's Rock.
Oct 24
I don't just plan on winning- I'm going to make them admit under oath the law they broke.
So I talk to the dealer in FLA and the seller who confirm he's the buyer. But the seller didn't want to do a statement and after the Kettermens called also he quit answering. I was a little miffed but understand.
I then subpoenaed Mr K cause I knew it would piss him off and they like to talk too much.
I also subpoenaed the PSP Det. In dist court there is not a recorder so I wanted a good witness and hopefully someone to take action. I was wrong. More on that later.
I wanted to post this then but again it's best after I also didn't contact a lawyer cause she was representing herself I know I can.
I filed my intent to defend and got ready.
Found out I'm not the 1st or second place they have sued. The staff at the courthouse "knew" them and kind of said they couldn't believe they were pulling this BS.
I had my buddy the serve him and I saw the det.
My cousin Vinny comes to Saylorsburg
Nov 24
Dude I was so amped up I was reverberating at 400hz.
I'll try to keep this simple but there's so much and I still giggle.
She goes first then I can ask her questions. Then I go and she asks me questions and I call my witnesses. I ask them them and then she can. She didn't call any and I knew she wanted to keep him out of it but there's no fun in that.
Mrs Ketterman's statement had these gems-
1- I took weeks, almost a month to let them know I had the gun
2- I was selling guns on my kitchen table and there was *gasp food also on the table.
3- I had a child running around the house she hear the little boy running and guns were out.
4- I'm just trying to keep it for myself.
5- It was for her she collects from time to time cause her dad worked for Remington.
Only reason he call was she was too busy at work
6- She was told by the PSP she could get it so I have to give it to her.
I had trouble at first keeping my statements back in the form of a question but I quickly got over my excitement and channeled my inner Vinny.
So I come back
1- did he call me 9/5-9/6 to say it would be in that weekend?-yea
Did I call him that Monday the 9th and did you call me on both the 9th and 10th?
-yea
According to the signed 4473 (the federal form for gun transfers) you did that on the 11th, how is that a month?-ahhh
So it wasn't?Yea
2- yea the shop was usable and what do you kneep on your table?
3- ahhh that "child" is 20, in Navy bootcamp and can legally own the rifle unlike your husband.
4- no I gave you options, they still stand and this court can't change that, and I won't buy it off you
5- funny I'm a FFL and worked full time and do 95 % of the calls. Plus he called after 6 at first and today I called it his rifle and you didn't challenge it. How are you going to posess it with a prohibited person in the house?-2nd house.
6- yes the PSP did give a PICS approval # the day after, I couldn't give you it that day cause I didn't have it, and well I don't trust you and after you never called back and served me, why should I?
She wouldn't say exactly why she bought it and did admit to buying several other guns from other places.
GRU- "My Turn"
Right away showed my LLC reg with the state and how she can't sue us personally and the whole suit was in bad faith.
Recaped above, added she didn't realize I called the cops, she really thought they just happened to be there. LOL
Also entered the shipping doc with his name and cell and 4473.That she checked off every step in the straw purchase handbook and as a dealer I can tank a transfer for almost any reason. Even IF the state still ok's it.
She tries to ask me questions. The whole time MrK is telling her what to ask or how to respond to my questions when I was asking. Yea you can't do that. But everytime he did it made them look worse so I didn't object. Finally it was too much and the judge shut him down. He got a little miffed when she reminded him he was only there to be a witness-for me.
I put him on the stand. By this time I wore down their defences.In the course of questioning him I get him to walk back all her statements, he did call FLA and wired the money and she just does the paperwork. He getting mad and says I'm blocking his 2A rights. Er you don't have any. Felony device access kills that even if it is old.
Re rants he;s got to get the Gov to expunge it cause it's over 20 years old...oh and the M2 for reckless endangerment that punishable by jail up to 2 years that also a DQ that you got convicted of 3 years ago- what about that?
Muttering
Now for the best part.
She questions him. What did we buy that gun for?
Him- because we were selling it also
The needle scratches over the record playing in my brain, WAIT WHAT?!
Yes we just got it to sell, not to do anything with it.
I look at the judge about yell and she on cue, picks up the 4473 holds it up and looks at them and says, you know you just admitted to falsifying this under oath?
There he's like were allowed to sell guns also.
She reads the question on the form. No not like this.
At this point I say it's a federal offense to lie to me or on that and with that admission this should be moved to criminal court and I cannot transfer that gun-.
"I'm done with this guy"
I put the cop up to confirm the laws.
So needless to say I won.
She threw out the cases on us personally and in whole.
But did leave it open to appeal.
We then talked off the record were I again explained the options.
Mr Kettermen was pissed and said they were going to appeal and get a lawyer.
I just looked at him, and said- up until now I've been extremely nice about this and I don't have much money on this. BUT I warn you IF you want to go full send and do that I WILL SUE you back. I suggest you look up Dragonetti act. Your last suits were simple, yes I know about them. I'm again warning you I will fight back and despite that you think -you are wrong.
Sadly
But wait there's more....
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