It's always good to see a parent who you know parents

[draftermatt]

and clearly you have never seen a good parent with a total screw-up for a kid-wish I lived in that world

Thank-you for saying that. It amazes me that everyone's first response is "parents fault" Has no one heard Merle Haggard's "Momma Tried"? Folks, sometimes parents do a great job but their kids won't listen, or the kids turn bad somewhere through no fault of the parent.

Or it could be that the kid is hitting puberty hard, and therefore feels he has to rebel against authority some, and took it way too far.

But I guess some people have never met an obnoxious 13 year old who has great people for parents.

[RayvenQ]

I wonder what it says about me that the thing I wonder the most at this point is when the whole mantra of "never hit a woman" crosses over from being chivalrous to being sexist... I've known quite a few women who could have used a smack or two (women who would physically abuse their partners because they knew said partner would blindly follow that mantra no matter the reality of the situation).
^-.-^

I live by the code of never hitting women, though that code is rather vague about tripping up, using pressure points and armlocks Which I will use if I have to.

There's only one woman I hit, my cousin, though only ever playfighting, even though it gets quite rough, she hits back twice as hard though and has a awful habit of going straight for my nipples, I could do the same back to her, lord knows I've even got her mums permission to do that to her, but I'm not that mean, so I'll just prod her pressurepoints in revenge

[Irving Patrick Freleigh]

As for the abuse line? My mom always figured that as soon as you started using a weapon (belt, spoon, switch, etc), you'd crossed the line.

^-.-^

Been there, done that. Many times.

My parents liked to smack me with a wooden spoon on my bare butt for even relatively small incidents like being a brat in a store.

So, my parents beat me too and I turned out okay.

[cewfa]

When I was a kid, getting hit always made me madder and made me want to rebel even more. I am far from proud of this, but as I got older whenever my parents would break out the physical punishment I would get angry and make them sorry when I got up (I chased my step-dad with a frying pan one day).

Having said all that, sometimes thats the only thing a person will be able to comprehend. Some people are just bad people and the only thing they understand is having the crap beat out of them. Hell, some people are so bad that in my opinion the only thing would cure them would be to put them to death and let God sort them out. I really hate to say that, but I believe its true.

[Andara Bledin]

When I was little, I tended to be something of a goody-two-shoes, so it wasn't often that I was up for punishment. But when I was, it was really difficult to punish me other than something physical, because all of the other methods most people use are pretty useless. And even the physical stuff I'd gotten philosophical about by the time I was 10.

My brother, on the other hand, you could beat black and blue and it wouldn't faze him. Sit him in a corner, however, and he'd be restless and fidgety within seconds. And that would still work today, even though he's in his 30's.

^-.-^

[kibbles]

The kid definitely needed to learn consequences; but, in the form of punishment for his crime, not abuse from his father. A backhand went way overboard IMO.

[Anriana]

Whether or not you agree with corporal punishment, you should never ever hit someone you care about (or really anyone) in the face. It's not designed for it and can cause serious damage, especially if you're doing it hard enough to knock the person to the ground. The butt is a far better place.


And as someone else said on this thread, the kid would have tried to push away and run from the LP regardless of their gender. We live in different times now; women in developed countries have the same career paths (and thus same occupational hazards) as men. Continuing archaic modes of chivalry is just silly when all of the other circumstances have changed. Teach your child to oh, I don't know, NOT steal and therefore not need to have physical contact with LP officers; don't tell him that the worst thing of stealing, attacking an LP officer and being arrested is the incidental gender of the LP officer. People in security jobs of any sort are going to have physical contact with the annoying punks they're there to guard against; people who say things like "it's wrong to hit a woman" honestly sound more like they're saying "it's wrong for women to have a job where they're going to be hit as a matter of course."

[fish3k1]

People in security jobs of any sort are going to have physical contact with the annoying punks they're there to guard against; people who say things like "it's wrong to hit a woman" honestly sound more like they're saying "it's wrong for women to have a job where they're going to be hit as a matter of course."

That's actually a fairly good point. We had a female LP officer in work over Xmas, and she knows how to handle herself (she also works as a bouncer), and I once saw her throw a rugby-player-sized guy out of a pub on her night off. Was a staff night out.

But yeah, definitely agree that what the dad chose to focus on was not the biggest thing the kid should be being punished for.

[Broomjockey]

"it's wrong to hit a woman" honestly sound more like they're saying "it's wrong for women to have a job where they're going to be hit as a matter of course."

I take offense to that statement. I believe it's wrong to hit a woman except under a very limited set of circumstances (usually defense related), but I think a woman can have whatever job she wants, as long as she realizes that not everyone feels as I do, and so I don't want to hear complaining when the inevitable happens. But to be told that my chivalry's coming off chauvenism? Yeah, offensive.

[Andara Bledin]

But to be told that my chivalry's coming of chauvenism? Yeah, offensive.

In a way, it is. Sure, it's a positive form, but it still is what it is; preferential treatment based on gender. While you may be offended that people feel that way, there are people offended at your feeling that way in the first place. Such is life.

^-.-^

[Broomjockey]

In a way, it is. Sure, it's a positive form, but it still is what it is; preferential treatment based on gender.

Except Chivalry in actuality isn't limited to treatment of women, it's just the classic example. In fact, it's not even really "Don't hit women." The actual code is "Don't hit those less able to defend themselves." That's certain women (as some kick phenominal amounts of ass), children, people with physical problems, etc. Chivalry is a code of behaviour on how to treat other people with respect and dignity. Chauvenism is disrespect based on gender. It's the complete opposite. To be told that respecting others is offensive strikes me as absurd.

Yes, the father in the OP was a little off the wall in dishing out punishment for breaking a chivilric code over a law of the land, but I'm specifically addressing the comment I quoted before, that anyone who says "Don't hit women" is also saying "Women shouldn't take jobs where they can get hit." That's not what I'm saying when I say it, and other people I know don't mean it that way either.

[Anthony K. S.]

Reading this thread again, something occurs to me . . .

When this father struck his son, the fact that he knocked him to the floor might have been unintentional.

It does happen sometimes. A person will hit something . . . or, sadly, someone . . . with more force than he/she really meant to. That can especially happen when said person is feeling intense emotions, such as fear or anger - both of which a parent should feel upon learning that his/her child has committed a crime.

There is no way for us to know what, exactly, was going through this man's head. It is possible that he only meant to snap his son back a little, but struck him harder than intended.

And when he knocked his son to the floor? Again, we don't know what was going through this man's head. It is possible that he felt an instinct to stop and say, "I'm sorry, I didn't mean to hit you that hard," but he deliberately suppressed that instinct, believing that it would only weaken the discipline, and continued with his harsh manner instead.

I don't know how likely any of that is, but I do believe it's possible.


Ultimately, the point that I'm trying to make is this :

We could speculate endlessly about the possibilities . . . But without knowing more about this family, their history, and their particular circumstances, there is no way any of us here can really make a sound judgment about any of it.

Posted by Barefootgirl :

Life is not about extremes. Normal parents have reactions that lie between the two extremes of backhanding a kid to the floor, and attacking the nasty store that apprehended widdle precious.

I do agree with this, at least to some extent.

I wouldn't say that backhanding a teenager to the floor constitutes an "extreme." All too often, parental discipline has taken a lot worse forms than that.

But yes, I would much rather see a healthy, middle-of-the-road reaction from a parent than either of the extremes . . .

Having said that, however, I also feel the need to say this :

Given the choice, I would also rather see parents go a little too far in disciplining their children than see parents make excuses for their children's behavior.

Posted by Barefootgirl :

Come to that, i wonder what happens to mum when she burns his breakfast toast...?

Now that is quite a leap of logic.

Say whatever you will about this man showing signs of anger management problems . . . But, in my opinion, there is a significant difference between a father striking his son for committing a crime and a husband hitting his wife for burning his toast.

I, for one, do not believe that one constitutes a reason to suspect the other.

Posted by Andara Bledin :

Originally Posted by Broomjockey :
But to be told that my chivalry's coming of chauvenism? Yeah, offensive.

In a way, it is. Sure, it's a positive form, but it still is what it is; preferential treatment based on gender. While you may be offended that people feel that way, there are people offended at your feeling that way in the first place. Such is life.

There's just no way to win here, is there?

If a man says that it's wrong for a man to hit a woman, he gets accused of chauvinism.

But if a man ever even hinted that it isn't, he would be accused of a lot worse.

[zzapp the witch]

And these kinds of arguments, my friends, is why I semi-moderate an all free-speech, no report channel on my Everquest 2 server. Let's us let off some intellectual steam while hitting digitized monsters......Some arguments you just can't win.

To sum up pretty much everything in the thread: Opinions and assholes. /shrug

[aniwahya]

I apologize if i am dredging up an old post.

Personally, I don't agree with backhanding the kid. Of course that could be in part because I had a stepfather who regularly punched holes in walls where my head had been seconds before (fast reflexes rock). There are other ways of getting the "I am the bigger animal and you *will* submit" point across other than backhanding someone in the face.

Also, someone who would do that in front of strangers, and cops, likely has no impulse control. Hell, that was probably a very restrained response for him.

On the other hand i can see the point where sometimes using things like guilt trips and reasoning simply isn't enough. A kid's personality can really affect what effect different types of punishments have on kids. As an example, you can beat me, guilt me,ignore me, but for the love of gods please, PLEASE don't bore me (things like sticking me in a room and forbidding doing anything other than sitting there is torture to me)! ><
So it is also feasible that this is not the first time the son has done this and the father is just at the end of his rope and is desperate to get through to his son before he seriously injures or kills someone. Even just shoving someone can greatly increase his potential jail sentence.

just my 2cp

[kiokushitaka]

Will agree that the apparent force of the strike seems to have been excessive, corporeal punishment does have its merit in my eyes. I mean, one smack on the bum from my mom with a flyswatter was enough to teach me never to do something retarded again...

But it is nice to see parents at least attempting to do their job as such.