Should I have kicked him out?

[CrazedClerkthe2nd]

Had a customer come into the Sandwich shop the other day with his son. While this boy was physically 5 or 6 years old he clearly had the mental capacity of a 2 year old if that.

The first thing the boy did was run back into the area where the sandwich stuff is (there's only a swinging gate there, no lock or anything) and got about three feet inside before I and my manager stopped him by having to literally block his path. The father told him to get out of there or he would "get burned", the boy did.

Then when the father was ordering the boy tried to come around back again. This time I had to physically push back against him so he couldn't force the gate open and get back here a second time. Again the father tells him to stop it, but this time he doesn't. The kid keeps pushing. Father tells him to stop and "come eat". Kid keeps pushing. Father begs kid to stop and the kid finally does.

Then the kid goes over to our drink machine and starts pressing the buttons so that liquid comes pouring out and goes straight into the drain. The father tells him to stop doing it. The kid ignores him. The father walks over there and tells him to stop doing it again and this time the kid obeys.

He also grabbed an advertising mat off the counter (one of those things by the registers that has some kind of promo or deal showing on it) and turned it into a frisbee, throwing it around. Father got it from him and put it back.

So they sit down to eat and my manager is about to leave for the day. She tells we absolutely cannot let the kid get behind the counter at all and if I have to I can tell them to leave.

She leaves and the kid finishes eating without incident. Then, as the father is trying to refill their drinks so they can leave, the kid tries to get behind the counter THREE more times, each time I had to physically push against him to keep him out.

Then he started to try and crawl underneath (there's a space below the gate, like a bathroom stall has). So this kid is lying face down on the floor, trying to crawl underneath our gate and the father is standing there saying "get up X, come on get up" "it's time to go, you need to get up." "you can't go back there, get up!"

The whole time they were there, the father never once grabbed or did anything physical to the kid, he just kept giving verbal commands.

Lather, rinse, repeat the other two times. The kid also got at the drink machine again (while I was guarding the gate).

I do not blame the kid at all, as this boy was obviously "special needs" , but I do blame the father for having practically no control over him. I could tell this poor man was extremely worn down from dealing with this child, but he knows what the kid his like and he has to realize what precautions need to be taken if the boy goes out in public.

I didn't kick them out because of sympathy, but I was extremely close. I just can't risk having someone get behind the counter and get hurt, especially a child who doesn't fully understand that some of what's back here is very hot or very sharp.

I wonder now if I shouldn't have gone ahead and kicked them out. It was such an unusual situation. I'd never seen a child, even a "special child" behave like that in public.

[Irving Patrick Freleigh]

I wouldn't have blamed you if you did. Special needs=/=can't be controlled.

[Jester]

Hard to say whether or not you should have kicked them out.

First of all, are you certain the man was the child's father? I know as an uncle and as someone who has watched other people's kids that I don't always feel comfortable "getting physical," as you put it. Or the parents may be against such physical force. (Not talking about beatings, just about being forceful.) Or perhaps that was the father and, he was against using physical force. Or perhaps he knew from experience that if he grabbed the kid or tried to force him to behave that the kid would completely freak out. Or perhaps the father was just a clueless wanker.

See, there are too many possibilities, and I've only covered a few....there are definitely tons more. I DO think that you could have gone middle of the road by asking or telling the father that he needed to control his child for safety reasons. Not addressing the father at all and then throwing them out would have been, in my mind, poor customer relations. Had you addressed the father and still no effort was made on his part to control the boy, then perhaps (and only perhaps) would throwing them out have been called for. But just as the man was lax in not controlling the boy, the staff was lax in not addressing the man about the boy.

Just my spare change on the matter.

[Merriweather]

I DO think that you could have gone middle of the road by asking or telling the father that he needed to control his child for safety reasons. Not addressing the father at all and then throwing them out would have been, in my mind, poor customer relations.

I agree with this, always tell a person what you expect, give them a chance to change that behavior, and if they don't then you can consider kicking them out. Maybe in a polite-bordering-on-apologetic tone, simply tell the customer you need him to please remove the child from the gate area, as you have work to do and cannot watch him, and there are many things you are afraid he can get hurt on behind the gate. Then if he doesn't control the child, you can ask them to leave "for the child's safety".

As far as using force (and I hope I don't stray into fratching here), I think no matter what a person's parenting idealogies, it has to be accepted that to be in charge of a small child, parent or not, will at some times involve force. Not force in a bad sense, such as dragging a child across a room, but in a simple " gently pick up the child and move them" sense. Often, picking up a child is the only option if they're in danger (about to step off a steep stair) or someone else is in danger (they're about to clobber another toddler with a Tonka truck) or behavior is incredibly disturbing (screaming child in the middle of a wedding ceremony). In cases like that, there really is no choice but to gently and non-threateningly pick up the child and move them - and be thankful that in most cases, we're bigger than they are

I do think you used lots of patience and deserve a thumbs up. And should you ever have to kick someone out under similar circumstances, just realize that you aren't being a mean person, you're just looking after the child's safety when no one else will.

[barainga]

I like Jester's point, I dont think it would have been wrong to say something to the father/uncle/male guardian about controlling the child first. While I do agree that special needs should get some extra leeway since they really cant help it, if it is a safety health concern you have to draw the line.

[ShootMePlease]

My aunt had Down Syndrome and during the last couple years of her life was in a wheelchair and I know the challenges of trying to coordinate everything when you go out. She certainly didn't run around, but she would slide out of her chair sometimes and make a mess when we would feed her. I sympathize with anyone who takes someone with special needs out in the public, as some folks don't understand or care to understand.

As far as the little boy goes, the best you could have done was tell the gentleman that you fear for the child's safety and to please keep him away from behind the counter. Compassion and understanding are a far better solution than throwing them out. I'm sure the gentleman felt bad enough.

[pageantmama]

Or perhaps he knew from experience that if he grabbed the kid or tried to force him to behave that the kid would completely freak out.

This is my oldest son. He is autistic and when he gets something on his mind he obsesses. Like the boy trying to get behind the counter. It might have been something he was fixated on at the moment and just HAD to go back there. And with our oldest he does not like being touched at all, not even hugged. So if you grab him to redirect him you end up with a full out meltdown that NO ONE wants to deal with. We have had our share of instances where one of us ended up just having to take him to the car because we could not get him to stop what he was doing or making him stop caused a total dramafied meltdown, but we did take him out of the situation which made it better quicker. Since the dad was the only one with him he didn't have much of a choice but he could have taken his food to go. People with "normal" kids or no kids don't understand as much that the ones of us with special needs kids want to just go out and get groceries or grab a bite to eat without dealing with a full force crazyiness. I have to go to the store and get something by myself with the kids sometimes and it got to the point where I would have to pull him through the store and hurry and get it over with as quickly as possible with people looking at me like I was the most horrible parent in the world to have such a misbehaving brat and it was all I could do to wait until I got to the car to have a good cry over it. All I want is to go somewhere and not have a fit or get stared at. And with my oldest he also has anxiety issues around a lot of people that set him off so going to any store without leaving him at home with my husband or having my husband there to take him to the car if he needs to is a major pain. All I want is a normal trip to the grocery store.

Thank you for recognizing he probably had a problem and not kicking them out right away or making a nasty comment to him or the dad. I have had cashiers say something to my son which of course made it worse which in turn made them give me and him even dirtier looks.

[ShootMePlease]

I have had cashiers say something to my son which of course made it worse which in turn made them give me and him even dirtier looks.

This is when you ask to speak to their superior. As much as I hate SC's I hate sucky employees even more, as they should know better than to be disrespectful. Discourteousness to a customer is a terminable offense at my job, as I'm sure it is at every other place of employment. Why not find out ?

[Jester]

SMP, Pageantmama merely said that some employees have said something to her son. She did not say whether it was disrespectful or not, merely that they said something. For all we know, it could have been something as simple as "Please don't do that" or as horrible as "Hey, kid, get your dumb ass out of there." We don't know what it was.

But not everything that an employee says to a misbehaving child is disrespectful, nor in need of a superior's attention. Oftentimes, it is necessary. We have all seen stories in here where an employee was trying to do their job, and because they did not treat the SC's child like the Speshul Snowflaik their parents thought they were, the parents freaked out and demanded management.

Look, not all incidents of employees saying something to a misbehaving child is disrespectful, whether or not that child is a special needs child. Nor is it necessarily disrespectful if they say something to someone that is obviously a special needs child. Anyone that would chastise me for saying "Don't do that" needs to go away, especially if I am saying it in the interest of safety.

Also, any parent of a special needs child HAS to know that not everyone out there in the Big Wide World knows about their child's special needs, so to call the Dogs of Management on someone for trying to enforce the safety rules of the job is just overkill, and is SC-esque. Yes, if they do it disrespectfully, it should be dealt with, but simply pointing out the unacceptable behavior or telling/asking the child not to do it are not automatically disrespectful, even if the employee is aware of the child's special needs.

Make sense? I hope so. Because I am an uncle whose first instinct is to flay the skin off of someone that acted disrespectfully to my special needs niece, who is in my eyes an angel; but if they were merely doing their job and trying to keep up the safety standards of the establishment, I would have no beef with them, even if (the gods forbid) it resulted in my angel bursting into tears. If anything, I would view that as a learning experience for her, however painful it may be for me to watch. (Of course, as should be obvious, if they were just disrespectful a-holes, I would rip their eyeballs out and eat them on my morning eggs. With salsa.)

[ShootMePlease]

SMP, Pageantmama merely said that some employees have said something to her son. She did not say whether it was disrespectful or not, merely that they said something. For all we know, it could have been something as simple as "Please don't do that" or as horrible as "Hey, kid, get your dumb ass out of there." We don't know what it was.

But not everything that an employee says to a misbehaving child is disrespectful, nor in need of a superior's attention. Oftentimes, it is necessary. We have all seen stories in here where an employee was trying to do their job, and because they did not treat the SC's child like the Speshul Snowflaik their parents thought they were, the parents freaked out and demanded management.

Look, not all incidents of employees saying something to a misbehaving child is disrespectful, whether or not that child is a special needs child. Nor is it necessarily disrespectful if they say something to someone that is obviously a special needs child. Anyone that would chastise me for saying "Don't do that" needs to go away, especially if I am saying it in the interest of safety.

Also, any parent of a special needs child HAS to know that not everyone out there in the Big Wide World knows about their child's special needs, so to call the Dogs of Management on someone for trying to enforce the safety rules of the job is just overkill, and is SC-esque. Yes, if they do it disrespectfully, it should be dealt with, but simply pointing out the unacceptable behavior or telling/asking the child not to do it are not automatically disrespectful, even if the employee is aware of the child's special needs.

Make sense? I hope so. Because I am an uncle whose first instinct is to flay the skin off of someone that acted disrespectfully to my special needs niece, who is in my eyes an angel; but if they were merely doing their job and trying to keep up the safety standards of the establishment, I would have no beef with them, even if (the gods forbid) it resulted in my angel bursting into tears. If anything, I would view that as a learning experience for her, however painful it may be for me to watch. (Of course, as should be obvious, if they were just disrespectful a-holes, I would rip their eyeballs out and eat them on my morning eggs. With salsa.)

Fair enough, Jester.

I am VERY defensive of folks with special needs. I do have to realize sometimes that not everyone says things with malice. You have just reminded me of the time we were at a restaurant at the shore and a couple was staring at my aunt. I got very upset and said something along the lines of "What the fuck are you looking at ?". The gentleman came over and said "She's beautiful !! We have a handicapped daughter at home !!". I sure felt pretty stupid.

Pardon my outburst. I only have good intentions

[MoonCat]

I'm not sure why anyone would assume the child was a special needs kid. The way most parents seem to discipline these days, it doesn't sound like unusual behavior at all. Five year olds do things like that. Dad/uncle/whoever he was didn't seem to have a clue as to how to stop him. What you were seeing there was likely not an isolated incident, but a pattern of behavior resulting from a lack of clear direction and consequences. I know it's become a cliche, but it's true that in my grandma's day, kids who had to be told more than once not to do something usually learned (later if not immediately) that disobeying mom/dad was a bad idea. And it wasn't all about spanking, so please don't think I'm talking about hitting the kid.

Just my opinion.

[Irving Patrick Freleigh]

I honestly think the kid's got ADHD big time.

As a kid I used to be a lot like that--wanting to run around on my own and not sit still, just causing general havoc.

My reason for not blaming the OP had he kicked out the child and the father is the safety aspect. The area behind the counter is full of hot ovens and sharp things that can severely injure a child. Had the OP not been around to restrain the child, something terrible could have happened.

[Mytical]

I have the attention span of a Gnat with memory issues. I was a very lively (though respectful) child that wanted to know how everything worked. I was very fidgety, and couldn't focus. When I would start to run around..my father would put a stop to it..quick. Especially in a dangerous place. I've seen parents get fully autistic children to behave..there are ways..you just have to put the time and effort into it.

[CrazedClerkthe2nd]

Hard to say whether or not you should have kicked them out.

First of all, are you certain the man was the child's father? I know as an uncle and as someone who has watched other people's kids that I don't always feel comfortable "getting physical," as you put it. Or the parents may be against such physical force. (Not talking about beatings, just about being forceful.) Or perhaps that was the father and, he was against using physical force. Or perhaps he knew from experience that if he grabbed the kid or tried to force him to behave that the kid would completely freak out. Or perhaps the father was just a clueless wanker.

See, there are too many possibilities, and I've only covered a few....there are definitely tons more. I DO think that you could have gone middle of the road by asking or telling the father that he needed to control his child for safety reasons. Not addressing the father at all and then throwing them out would have been, in my mind, poor customer relations. Had you addressed the father and still no effort was made on his part to control the boy, then perhaps (and only perhaps) would throwing them out have been called for. But just as the man was lax in not controlling the boy, the staff was lax in not addressing the man about the boy.

Just my spare change on the matter.

I considered this too. The man seemed be extremely focused on not doing anything physical to the child. If he knew it would end badly if he did, that makes perfect sense.

[Moirae]

Special needs or not, thats not acceptable behavior. I'd have kicked them out.