server building advice needed.

[SteeleDragon78]

ok, so i have this old desktop tower with an amd setup that im trying to setup as a test/developer/production web server for me to play with apache, php, mysql, java and html. im basically trying to shift from a help desk position to a sysadmin or web development type job. i realize that the books im reading are not going to make me mr web2.0 or anything, but having the server will be helpful.

anyway i digress, im looking for advice on server os, any web/server tools, developers tools, etc. free would be preferred, but cheap will do.

most of what im doing right now is to get me ready for going back to school sometime after the first of the year, so any advice is welcome and appreciated. SD

[Pedersen]

Well, you've just left a monstrously open-ended topic here for me to comment on. Sometime last year, I participated in a similar thread. Can't find it right now, though.

Anyway, the very first thing you have to do is decide which direction you want to go in. You see, being a sysadmin is very different from being a developer. They each have their good and bad sides for their day to day work.

Sysadmin: Your day to day job starts by checking out the state of the systems you manage, making sure that all systems are functioning normally. After that, you check to see if any are at or approaching capacity in any of the big three categories (CPU, RAM HD). If so, you deal with it. After that comes project work, which can run a very wide range of tasks, from implementing all new systems to giving overhauls across the systems to evaluating new systems to... Well, most anything is possible.

Developer: Your day starts by finding out if there are any crises you need to resolve due to a bug in code somewhere. Usually, there isn't. You then resume your existing project work. You finish one project, and get another. Frequent side projects are the norm, and are to be expected, and are usually kept very short.

The skill sets don't have as much overlap as you might think. For the sysadmin job, you need to have a deep understanding of computer hardware and how it works with other pieces of hardware. Your troubleshooting skills will have to allow you to go to an unknown system, figure out enough to figure out how to find the problem, find the problem, and then fix it, and all within a reasonable amount of time.

The developer job tends to be more laid back. You don't need to understand the hardware as intimately, but you need to understand a variety of programming languages (to the point that your attitude about learning a new language is "Ah, so new syntactic sugar to learn. Okay."). You need to understand algorithms, and how to figure out why your super-nifty-keen algorithm is running 100 times slower than you think it should be. You have to know the tools to be able to analyze your program in different ways.

Very different skill sets to master. Some precious few do both, but they are very few and far between (and no, I'm not saying I'm one of them. I try to be, but don't know how successful I am at it).

Tell me which direction you want to go, though, and I'll point you to your next steps.

[SteeleDragon78]

There in lies my problem, im naturally hardware savvy, dunno why just always been able to deal with hardware problems quickly and easily. but i also want to expand my skill sets. i guess the developer option would be more as a hobby than a career. for now i would like to run with the developer option to expand the skill sets i already have, perhaps my intimate knowledge with hw will help my software skills.

[Geek King]

Very different skill sets to master. Some precious few do both, but they are very few and far between (and no, I'm not saying I'm one of them. I try to be, but don't know how successful I am at it).

Master only one--okay, I can buy that. But there are a lot of IT guys (like me ) who work for smaller organizations that end up needing skills from several different diciplines. During the week, I wear the hats of Sysadmin, network administrator, help desk (for both hardware and software), phone system administrator (Cisco IP phones), Printer and copier repairman, and Device Manager for our small fleet of organization cell phones, PDAs, and two Blackberrys. I am not god at any of them, and I share the duties with my boss. Some of it I've taken classes for, but most has been picked up as I go along. Some days I spend a lot of time with Google finding the information I need that I haven't run into before.

I'd suggest picking what you want to mainly do, like Pedersen suggested, and taking some classes in it. Try for classes taught by people recently or currently in the field, if you can. Those teachers will tend to like to talk during class, and you can pick up a lot of "unofficial" tricks for working in the real world that don't get into the official books.

Then, when you have time, poke around with other things. I started in software testing (many, many moons ago), and played with upgrading my own system at home in my spare time. I found I liked that better, so I learned more about the hardware side of things. I moved into PC help desk as I learned enough to handle it, and through that I picked up things about servers and networks that allowed me to help out with those. Hell, two years ago, I could count on one hand how many times I had used a cell phone, and now I'm flashing SIM cards and porting numbers from one phone to another a couple times a week (our maintenance guys are awful hard on phones).

I guess what I'm saying is this: Don't get too attached to one thing. Some folks will be hired somplace big enough to have a full-time Sysadmin, or web developer. But if you have several different skills, you'll be more attractive to places that can't afford/don't need that many people in the IT department. Good Luck, whatever you choose.

[Pedersen]

Master only one--okay, I can buy that. But there are a lot of IT guys (like me ) who work for smaller organizations that end up needing skills from several different diciplines.

I'm in much the same boat. You and I still do different things, but when it comes to computers, I tell people the only thing I don't do is scientific computing, and that's just because I don't have the background for it (in that discipline, an error as small as 0.00000000001 can make a big difference). We're both what are coming to be known as "Generalists". Do anything and everything, with some spots being stronger than others. For instance, I suspect (from your list above) that I have stronger programming skills, while you have stronger hardware skills (my printer/copier repair skills consist of "Does it have a jam? No? Let's power cycle it then.").

But mastering something specifically takes effort. And my statement was not clear enough: Precious few people master multiple disciplines. But my phrasing did not make that clear. Sorry about that.

I guess what I'm saying is this: Don't get too attached to one thing. Some folks will be hired somplace big enough to have a full-time Sysadmin, or web developer. But if you have several different skills, you'll be more attractive to places that can't afford/don't need that many people in the IT department. Good Luck, whatever you choose.

There's a growing tend towards employing "Computer Generalists", mainly because there's a lot of companies that can't afford to hire a full staff of specialized people full time. Instead, they hire a small core staff (small usually means 1 or *maybe* 2) to do what the small group can, and then augment as necessary with consultants. As such, they need people who can do pretty much everything on the computer. Generalists fit that bill very well.

All in all, Geek King had some excellent suggestions. Use them, and you'll go far.

There in lies my problem, im naturally hardware savvy, dunno why just always been able to deal with hardware problems quickly and easily. but i also want to expand my skill sets. i guess the developer option would be more as a hobby than a career. for now i would like to run with the developer option to expand the skill sets i already have, perhaps my intimate knowledge with hw will help my software skills.

Okay, now to answer this: You're looking to do some development work. You want it to cost as little as possible up front (obviously). Now, for the hard part.

Choosing your environment and language.

The number of options you have is, simply put, staggering. I could talk for several hours, and not run out of things to say. I'll go for a simple, short recommendation that (amongst computer people) would probably generate some sort of debate.

Go with Python. http://www.python.org/
Use the wxWidgets tool kit http://www.wxpython.org/
Pick a text editor (Personally, I use ViM, some use Emacs, but you can get away with notepad if you prefer)

wxPython also has a very helpful book out, called wxPython in Action. You can even buy it as a PDF. http://www.manning.com/rappin/

Finally, once you've gotten the environment ready to roll, read through that book. Make sure you actually understand the examples. Then, pick some small project that you've wanted to see done, and make it happen. This will only be a desktop application, not a web application, but it will help you learn the basics of programming and structure.

By the time you've gotten that done, you'll have reached a point where you're ready to experiment with other languages and types of applications.

[Geek King]

For instance, I suspect (from your list above) that I have stronger programming skills, while you have stronger hardware skills.

Oh, I don't know about that. I'll take the challenge of almost anyone who wants to contest with me writing Pascal or C in vi.

Oh, and your copier skills are about par with mine. I'll take a HP printer apart if it's out of warrenty, but copiers get a call to the professionals if I can't see the problem.

[SteeleDragon78]

so i took pedersons advice and went to b&n to see if i could find a nice primer book for python, i saw only 1 book that they had in stock. ill pick it up on friday. i did see a teach yourself apache,php,and mysql book that came with all 3. i was wondering if i should pickup that one too? i know at work they use apache servers and alot of php/mysql as well as sql databases. just kinda curious.

[Pedersen]

Oh, I don't know about that. I'll take the challenge of almost anyone who wants to contest with me writing Pascal or C in vi.

Moved past Pascal. Delphi and Object Pascal are the best variants on it, but they don't provide much for cross-platform. And I'm not interested in writing apps that aren't cross platform, personally.

C is such a pain to code in. I can do it, but getting things right with C is so much harder than some of the other languages out there. Obviously, my current favorite is Python. I hate the white space bit, but I have to admit that the rest of the language is so nice that it makes up for it.

BTW, if you like vi, you should check out ViM. Very nice to use for fans of vi, but I don't recommend it unless you're either already familiar with vi, or are a bit masochistic and want to learn it (once you have learned it though? Wow you can do a lot).

so i took pedersons advice and went to b&n to see if i could find a nice primer book for python, i saw only 1 book that they had in stock. ill pick it up on friday. i did see a teach yourself apache,php,and mysql book that came with all 3. i was wondering if i should pickup that one too? i know at work they use apache servers and alot of php/mysql as well as sql databases. just kinda curious.

Well, for the Python, allow me to save you some money.

There's enough free documentation for Python itself that you don't need to buy a book unless you really want to.

At this point, I would not recommend it. It will only add to the amount you have to learn. Pick one thing, and learn that to competency. Then pick up something else, and add that to your skill set, and learn how to mix them (or if that cannot be done, learn how to tell when to use one or the other).

You don't have to take yourself to mastery, just take yourself to competency.

[SteeleDragon78]

ok, any advice on an easy server platform os? ive been looking at ubuntu server, but im open to other ideas. ive heard that solaris is a fairly easy to learn os. i would prefer to stay away from windows as i cant afford the license price for server 2003.

[Pedersen]

You don't need an operating system with "server" in the name to teach yourself how to deal with servers.

Windows Server 2003 is Windows XP 64 with some registry hacks and slightly different packaging.

Ubuntu server provides alternatives during setup that Ubuntu desktop does not. Ubuntu desktop installs some extras that are not needed for a server (but are available to be installed in "server" Ubuntu).

Here's the dirty little secret: These server OS's are functionally the same as their "Worksation" counterparts. As such, you can pick whichever you want.

One bit of advice I'll give, though: Solaris? Easy to learn? In comparison to learning to do your own brain surgery on your own brain, maybe. Any variety of UNIX is, by its very nature, harder to learn than any variety of Windows. Sad, but true.

Solaris is UNIX. Linux is UNIX in all but name. That being said, for ease of getting your feet wet, I'd go with Ubuntu desktop/workstation. It'd be the easiest transition, I think.

[LostMyMind]

Aye, with the exception of XP and Vista. The desktop version is roughly the same as the server version. XP pro has all the server fun, as far as vista why waste all that valuable server memory to an overbloated os.

Pick your poison, there are fairly easy internet hosting/server software that you can install with windows or linux. Some come with the OS itself. If you want an FTP server, find an FTP server software. Same for HTTP, or hell even gopher for those who remember that protocol.

Personally, I don't like using the OS version of server stuff. Since that what most hackers use to find "problems" and "backdoors". I like running my server stuff via an app instead of an service. That way it's easy to shut down and restrict.

[SteeleDragon78]

I appreciate all the help and advice thats been given, but it looks like this is going to a back burner for now. i hit a curb with my car and ruined 1 rim and messed a second up pretty bad. and to top it off the hd i had for the server project isnt being seen by either ubuntu or suse. im going to get a new hdd and try again.

[blackmars0]

Well, once you get it back up and running, I've got this laptop running Ubuntu (Dell Inspiron 1501, believe me, it had a host of issues getting installed. But I'm glad I did it) set up as a desktop/web server. Getting the webserver actually up and running was fairly simple, and there are a number of handy guides to get you going.

If you want a good starter CMS (content management system), I'd look into Drupal. I've used it to build a couple of websites now, and it's definitely customizable (as well as completely open source... so it's free), because you're free to add or change it as you please. The core, and most of the modules, run on PHP, which I've found fairly easy to learn. There's a ton of documentation either way.

Give it a shot.