Doctor Who SPOILERS Discussion

[Kheldarson]

Which is what I said in my post. Some would be ok with it, some would not. Then again, look at it this way. How many fans would raise an uproar about 'cheating the system'? Ie having more regenerations? I suspect about as many as would be upset about a new doctor.

Even the original doctor, however, had different reactions to the same background. Because his views changed and his attitude changed. I do agree that there would be a difference, of course there would, but it is just speculation on my part as to how the series could continue without 'breaking the rules'.


However, I did not post this theory to start any kind of argument. After all, they are just theories. Every doctor who fan will have things they accept and things they don't.

Well, as I noted in my post, there are different things that have been done that could be exploited to get around the regeneration limit.

And while yes, the Doctor has had many different reactions to the same things, that works as basic character growth. We all respond to the same stimulus differently over time as we grow up (like boy vs. girl differences, understanding our parents' relationship, etc.), but you can see the progression in the Doctor and understand why he has a new reaction based on his history.

To continue with Kabe's analogy, it's Batman: TAS vs. Batman Beyond. Both shows follow Batman, both shows have similar art and story styles, both shows have similar casts. Yet TAS is far more beloved than Beyond. Why? Because TAS follows Bruce Wayne, who we identify more solidly as being Batman, while Beyond follows Terry McGinnis, who we don't. Even though both have to make similar choices as Batman and in their own personal lives (trying to be Batman while protecting their normal life), those choices don't resonate for most in McGinnis as they do in Wayne. Heck, I enjoy Beyond as a successor, but even I'll admit that McGinnis is "no Batman". He does try though.

And that's more or less my point. Following a "successor" to the Doctor will constantly get that type of comparison. Even if we were to pick up and follow, say, Jenny who declares herself the new Doctor as his daughter, it still wouldn't be him.

They're far more likely to have the Doctor do something clever that we'll all bitch about anyway (because what fan doesn't?) but ultimately expect because, face it, isn't that what the Doctor ultimately does? I mean, look at what he did with the prison door

[Racket_Man]

Well the Master in the original series did cheat the system, he had used up his 13 regenerations and went back to Gallifrey and nicked another 13 from the Gallifrean scientists.

The Master did another sort of cheat during the Tom Baker era. The episode The Keeper of Traken (Last Tom Baker season/series 2d to last story). The Master used the Keeper position (whilst in his primary TARDIS) to absorb some of the power of the Source (which the Keeper controls) to partially rebuild his dying body then after being defeated by the Doctor took over Tremas's body.

It is not certain IF the Master has regained 13 regenerations with this act.

The Master was offered/ maybe granted another 13 regenerations in the Peter Davidson era story The Five Doctors.

Maybe during the Trial of a Time Lord arc in the Collin Baker era the Time Lords again offered the Master more regenerations (too much to watch right now)

[DaDairyDruid]

Theta Sigma was the Doctor's "nickname" during his university years. he explained this briefly in the Sylvester McCoy episode "The Happiness Patrol" and not his true name.

[KhirasHY]

Don't forget, since we're talking reincarnations here, that at some point the Doctor is supposed to also become the Valeyard, who appeared during the 6th Doctor's stories. The Master revealed that the Valeyard is The Doctor, or an amalgamation of the darker parts of his existence, somewhere between his "twelfth and final regeneration." As part of the trial, it was revealed that the Valeyard was offered the rest of The Doctor's regenerations for playing his part, so it's possible that one Time Lord can gift their regeneration to another. Incidentally, as the Valeyard is either The Doctor, or an independent offspring of a botched regeneration (like The Watcher was in the old serials), it's possible that he could feature in the next episode, when we get a new regeneration.

Which, naturally, brings me to another thought (and reminder): River Song burned up at least one regeneration to help The Doctor survive her poison kiss. Since we have no idea how many regenerations she had left (or gave away), that could be used as a convenient excuse for why he gets to survive for longer. Since they left River's existence open at the end of The Name of the Doctor with one last "Spoilers", it's possible that she still has some influence over him.

Finally, there's always the traditional deus ex machina version: random Time Lord sacrifices themselves for him, we find out the regeneration limit was actually a lie for population control, and so on. That's stretching, I know, but it IS an easy cop out

[DaDairyDruid]

Would the Daleks even be aware of the time lords existance if they were to return? if Dalek Clara wiped all traces of the Doctor from existance, whats to keep the virus from eating all knowledge of Gallifrey and the Time Lords as well? If they were to return, and return to the pattern of non interferance, they could, in theory stay hidden forever. or Rassilon could pull an ultimate Pearl Harbor scenario and completely wipe out the Daleks before they were even aware of who/what the time lords are.

[cinema guy]

or Rassilon could pull an ultimate Pearl Harbor scenario and completely wipe out the Daleks before they were even aware of who/what the time lords are.

There is a theory on the interwebs that that was what the Timelords tried to pull in Genesis of the Daleks.

The Autons' planets were destroyed in the Time War and so they tried to invade Earth (Rose) and the Zygons' planet was destroyed in the war and so they tried to invade Earth. Who went around destroying planets, and why?

[Jay 2K Winger]

Which, naturally, brings me to another thought (and reminder): River Song burned up at least one regeneration to help The Doctor survive her poison kiss. Since we have no idea how many regenerations she had left (or gave away), that could be used as a convenient excuse for why he gets to survive for longer. Since they left River's existence open at the end of The Name of the Doctor with one last "Spoilers", it's possible that she still has some influence over him.

It was pretty clearly stated at the end of "Let's Kill Hitler" that River used up all her remaining regenerations to save the Doctor. Supposing there is a limit of 13, then that would mean at least ten regenerations were burned up. (Baby Melody -> Mels -> River -> burned up regens)

The Autons' planets were destroyed in the Time War and so they tried to invade Earth (Rose) and the Zygons' planet was destroyed in the war and so they tried to invade Earth. Who went around destroying planets, and why?

I took the destruction of planets not necessarily a malign act on any person or race's part, but just a matter of collateral damage. That the Time Lords and Daleks were so hell-bent on destroying each other that they weren't paying attention to who was in the way.

Then again: Daleks. They explicitly hate all other forms of life. It could have been them.



Going back to the Forgotten Doctor's lifespan... (and I'm going to call him the Forgotten Doctor from now on, since he re-earned the right to the name The Doctor, but I don't want to go mucking about with numbering)

Something I had forgotten is that Time Lords age much slower than humans. So, if the Forgotten Doctor had regenerated into a younger man's body, but was an old man by the time The Moment came along, then he had actually been fighting to stop the Time War for centuries.

Oh, Doctor.

[Stormraven]

As far as the count goes, Moffat has stated the official count.

http://www.bbcamerica.com/anglopheni...ration-riddle/

[Jay 2K Winger]

As far as the count goes, Moffat has stated the official count.

http://www.bbcamerica.com/anglopheni...ration-riddle/

*shakes a fist skyward*

MOFFAAAAAAT!!!

[Mytical]

Question about the Valeyard. Would the doctor actually turn into the Valeyard? From what I understood, and I could be wrong, the Valeyard was made from all the darkest parts of Doctor Who.. the darkest parts of ALL the Doctors. A construct if you will.

Much like the human doctor that came from the doctor's hand.. not the doctor but made from him. Another example would be the clone sent to infiltrate U.N.I.T. Having the memories, but not BEING the doctor. Or am I missing something?

[DaDairyDruid]

if what the Master said was to be believed the Valyard is an almalgamation of all the darkest parts of the Doctors personality distilled into a single entity, and would have come forth sometime between the 12th and 13th incarnation. *I* think that the Valyard could very well have been an echo of the future in the time war. the Doctor mentions "the army of Never-weres" and it could be plausible that the Valyard is one such being.

another thing. the Master used up all his regenerations prior to the deadly assasin. he was able to get a new body only due to the lingering powers of the Keeper of Traken. He then "dies" on Skaro, gets another new body, and ends up in the eye of harmony. So he is way past the limit, so how then does her regenerate from Yana to Saxon? Theory: the Time Lords had him reborn (also Rassilon) for the purposes of fighting in the time war, and so may have given him a "new" Gallifreyan body with a new set of regenerations. it is Plausible this tech survived in the Doctors Tardis in the "Deux ex Machina" room, and he will get a brand ne body in Capaldi with a new set of regenerations

[Jay 2K Winger]

if what the Master said was to be believed the Valyard is an almalgamation of all the darkest parts of the Doctors personality distilled into a single entity, and would have come forth sometime between the 12th and 13th incarnation.

The actual quote was something about that. But it was "between your twelfth and final incarnations." Thirteen wasn't mentioned.

The rest of your theory sounds plausible.

I do think that the Valeyard is a future plot point that Moffat is cultivating.

[Racket_Man]

There is a theory on the interwebs that that was what the Timelords tried to pull in Genesis of the Daleks.

That is a very plausible theory considering the conversation between the Doctor and the Time Lord in the beginning of the story.

Whether alter them genetically so to make them less aggressive, find a weakness that can be exploited in the future, or avert their creation entirely.

The Doctor in a moral dilemma lets the Daleks proceed and really does not hinder their development all that much taking into consideration, even with all of the destruction the Daleks cause, the good that came out of it, the cooperation between races and species and such.

SO in effect the Doctor #4 may well be responsible for the Time War and all of its related destruction. This may be a "guilt burden" of the him with the NO MORE WAR thing.

[cinema guy]

A aborted attempt to halt their creation that the Daleks never new about is arguably not the first act of war.

On the other hand - the Daleks may have made the first attempt. They tried to make clones of the Doctor and his assistants to assassinate the high council in Resurrection of the Daleks.

[Jay 2K Winger]

So "The Time of the Doctor" has come and gone.

For once, Moffat seems to have answered all of the fan concerns. And turned Eleven's entire run into a stable time loop.

The cracks and the Silence from the first two seasons were explained as the result of a renegade faction of the Church of the Papal Mainframe, who inadvertently created the whole reason they existed in the first place. (If they hadn't tried to blow up his TARDIS, the cracks wouldn't have existed, and thus never given Gallifrey a place to try to re-enter the universe, and thus the Doctor would never have gone to Trenzalore where the Question might have been answered.)

Plus the Silents themselves are explained as Confessional Priests, genetically engineered. So that answers some of that.

And of course, the regeneration limit is bypassed. The Doctor received no regenerations from River Song, but he was given a new regeneration cycle (12 more regenerations!) by the Time Lords so he could survive the trap at Trenzalore.