Doctor Who SPOILERS Discussion

[Jay 2K Winger]

Obviously, the Whovian world is a-buzz thanks to the 50th Anniversary Special, "The Day of the Doctor," and with the impending Christmas Special wherein Matt Smith will regenerate into the new Doctor, Peter Capaldi.

This thread can be used to discuss the show, spoilers and all.

REPEAT-- THAR BE SPOILERS AHOY
=========================================

So... evidently the story arc going forward may revolve around The Doctor trying to find Gallifrey, since the Curator implied that the planet survived The Doctors' gambit.

There's a problem that the Doctor's going to need to face, should he find Gallifrey and try to save it again, however. More than one, when you get down to it.

Namely:
+ The Nightmare Child and the other assorted horrors. I'm supposing, here, that these are the forbidden weapons that had been in the armory along with The Moment.
+ The High Council of Gallifrey. The very people who'd authorized the use of the forbidden weapons against the Daleks in the first place.
+ Rassilon. The mad-with-power, omnicidal maniac who was willing to burn the entire universe so the Time Lords could ascend to some new plane of existence.
+ The Master. He leapt back through the time-lock to get his revenge on Rassilon and the High Council for making him what he was, and when last seen, he was still insane.

If the Doctor returns to Gallifrey, there's a good likelihood that all these problems are going to be waiting for him. More to the point, however-- The Daleks have rebuilt their empire. The Time War could kick off all over again if the Time Lords return, and now the Daleks don't remember who the Doctor is, so they're not going to run in terror from him again.

Any other notions or things people want to discuss or talk about with Dr. Who?

[KatherineB]

Yes, for all the complaints, I've read, it's a very easy way to bring back the Master (in whatever form) and also to address the other questions from the war.

And while I agree the Daleks won't be running from the Doctor any time soon, they won't be very pleased at the realisation that the Time Lords have survived. The Doctor could find himself embroiled in the Next Great Time War before he knows where he is.

[Kanalah]

If Capaldi is #13 would that make him the Valeyard? Although I am fond of calling Hurt Doctor 8.5

[Mytical]

Here is a thought though. If the Daleks have rebuilt their empire.. will he have a choice? As good as the doctor is, he is only one Time Lord .. and the Daleks did challenge the might of ALL the Time Lords combined at full power. Look near the end of the day of the doctor. Not all of the Time Lords were bad. So in the end, with the threat of the Daleks hanging over everybody's head, and nobody to really challenge them... does he have a choice?

[Mytical]

Lets talk about the doctor shall we?

Everybody seems to be counting the doctors and the count seems to vary depending on HOW you count regenerations. From the official '12th doctor' that Capaldi was called by the people running Doctor Who currently, to 14th or 15th depending on how regenerations are counted. Now assuming that only full regenerations matter, and the 9th doesn't that will mean that there will only be 1 more.. but now here is the thing. IT DOESN'T MATTER. Let me explain WHY.

Now I consider myself somebody with an above average imagination, but there are people with much greater imagination out there. So somebody probably has already thought of the points I am going to make. Most likely the brilliant people behind this show are so far ahead of me, that they have considered these options and much much better ones that I will never imagine.

Something to remember The Doctor is a Title (a promise), not a name. So here are a couple ways Doctor Who could possibly go on forever. A young time lord (once Gallifrey is found) could become the current Doctors Companion and student. When the current 'The Doctor' finally has no more regenerations, the 'student' takes the mantle of the 'master' and becomes 'The Doctor'. Boom 13 more legitimate regenerations, yes please, thank you.

There are almost endless variations of ways to keep 'The Doctor' past number 13. Some fans will like (Not cheating the rule), some they will probably not like (cheating the rule), and some who only time will tell (Bending the rule)..but surely with the collective imagination of the doctor who fans.. anything is possible.

[Kheldarson]

Except the Doctor is a name, Myt. It's the Doctor's name as much as his title and promise. Take it this way: our names here aren't our real names. They're stand ins, titles we've taken as our own for any number of reasons. But they're our names here for all intents and purposes. If someone else were to write under my, or yours, or anybody else's, people would tend to notice. And why? Because the core of who you are vs. Another is different.

And that's what makes the Doctor special. He has to remain intrinsically the same while changing. The core of who he is, the reasons why he does what he does has to be there for it to be the Doctor. A student, a stand-in, would have different motivations and therefore wouldn't be the Doctor in full.

That's not to say that there aren't ways around the limit. The Master broke the rule with some consequence. There's the fact that it may not be a hard limit anymore as it was set by Rassilon. There's the fact he was revived by River's regenerations. Those are openings that can be exploited.

As to the count, Moffat gave a good explanation for that: the Doctor doesn't track himself that way, so it doesn't matter how we count it.

[Jay 2K Winger]

Now at last, today's the day
When war comes to Gallifrey

The Moment comes to end the war
Because one man declared "No More."

Through time and space, coming helping hands
And thus ensure that Gallifrey stands.

And now Gallifrey, she falls no more,
But Silence Will Fall... at Trenzalore.

[Jay 2K Winger]

I think I know another reason the Doctor is haunted by the Time War, even if he no longer has the knowledge that he burned both Time Lords and Daleks to give him guilt...

When Eight regenerated into the War Doctor, he became a young warrior. We see a brief reflection of a young John Hurt at the end of "The Night of the Doctor." He became a young warrior, not to fight for the Time Lords, but to try to stop the senseless violence and collateral damage.

But by the time of "The Day of the Doctor," he is an old man. He's spent at the very least DECADES in the Time War, trying to stop the violence. And he's clearly failed. He's still got some kind of blood on his hands-- and he's evidently been up to enough to have the Gallifreyan General call him "a madman" when the "NO MORE" message is found in Arcadia.

[smileyeagle1021]

Except the Doctor is a name, Myt. It's the Doctor's name as much as his title and promise

At the same time Steve Smith is a name, Bob Jones is a name, James Garcia, etc... there are multiplepeople with each of those names and more... hell, even prior to my name change I had a fairly common name, ane I know of, through web searches, at least 3 other people who have the the same name.
it is not unfeasible that the doctor could take on an apprentice also named the doctor who admires him so much that he begins to emulate then incorporate a common core set of values.

[Kheldarson]

At the same time Steve Smith is a name, Bob Jones is a name, James Garcia, etc... there are multiplepeople with each of those names and more... hell, even prior to my name change I had a fairly common name, ane I know of, through web searches, at least 3 other people who have the the same name.
it is not unfeasible that the doctor could take on an apprentice also named the doctor who admires him so much that he begins to emulate then incorporate a common core set of values.

But each of those Steve Smiths are fundamentally different: they have their own experiences and interpretations. Even if they all went through the exact same events, they'd still respond differently.

So you could have an apprentice who takes the name and emulates the behavior, but he'll never be THE Doctor. He can't be because he's not. The apprentice would be the Doctor, Jr. The show could carry on in name, sure, but you'd lose fans with the loss of the real/original Doctor.

[KabeRinnaul]

At the same time Steve Smith is a name, Bob Jones is a name, James Garcia, etc... there are multiplepeople with each of those names and more... hell, even prior to my name change I had a fairly common name, ane I know of, through web searches, at least 3 other people who have the the same name.
it is not unfeasible that the doctor could take on an apprentice also named the doctor who admires him so much that he begins to emulate then incorporate a common core set of values.

And Batman can continue with Dick Grayson or Terry McGinnis under the cowl instead of Bruce Wayne, but you can't pretend they're the same character.

[Racket_Man]

Reguarding the Doctor's real name:

Not sure how canon it really is

Tom Baker era: Keys To Time series: The Armageden Factor (final story for the Keys to Time story arc)

The other Time Lord in the story(Drax) calls Tom Bakers Doctor something like Theta Sigma and about the Doctor getting his Doctorate from the Time Lord Academy (Class of 92). The Doctor replies he has not gone by the name of Theta Sigma for A LONG time.

ETA: Pulled up the episode for the correct info.

So I would say in this situation the name Doctor is indeed a endowed/earned title AND a name that the character goes by IRL so to speak.

[Mytical]

Which is what I said in my post. Some would be ok with it, some would not. Then again, look at it this way. How many fans would raise an uproar about 'cheating the system'? Ie having more regenerations? I suspect about as many as would be upset about a new doctor.

Even the original doctor, however, had different reactions to the same background. Because his views changed and his attitude changed. I do agree that there would be a difference, of course there would, but it is just speculation on my part as to how the series could continue without 'breaking the rules'.


However, I did not post this theory to start any kind of argument. After all, they are just theories. Every doctor who fan will have things they accept and things they don't.

[Amina516]

I have these to add...

[Bardmaiden]

Well the Master in the original series did cheat the system, he had used up his 13 regenerations and went back to Gallifrey and nicked another 13 from the Gallifrean scientists.

But the Doctor couldn't get anymore because Gallifrey had burned.... or so we thought.

Now if he finds his way home and releases Gallifrey from it's time prison, the planet will be so grateful that they will give him another 13 regenerations...

Well it's my friends theory and I like it