Doctor Who Discussion [Spoiler Zone!]

[Gizmo]

Latest episode (Forest)...... um, yeah, I was actively browsing on other pages and just letting it play in the background.

Meh.

[Jetfire]

Very Meh. I agree with the post above that this season feels like an Anime filler arc. Not much is going on, and even the hints of the overall arc seem too hidden to really be interesting. It'll take a damn good wrap up to pull this season together IMO.

As for the forest ep, it had so much potential, and just fell flat on its face.

* The trees in general were a great idea.
* Catching the Doctor by surprise? Also a fun concept.
* Sonic not working on trees? Great call back and works fine for the story.
* Even the Trees protecting the Earth from the sun flare; it's wonky Who-Science, but I'll go with it.

Everything else about the episode? Epic fail.

The kids were annoying; Pink and Clara are gunning for the Worst Teachers Evah Awards, and HOW the plot was solved was just off.

I think the main problem was that the main plot, or at least the most interesting plot (what the trees were doing/how they were doing it) was shoved to the background for the Clara/Pink/Doctor triangle, and further pushed back by the kids. It was like you were trying to look around Clara and Pink to try and see what was going on in general.

The few high points of the ep dealt with the actual interesting plot; the Doctor trying to figure out what the Trees were doing, Maebve hearing voices and pointing out she knew/heard the flare coming and getting that across to the Doctor, etc....

A shame this episode got squished in after two great to good eps and what looks like a good ep coming. (As some commenters on another board put it, the most interesting thing about this episode was the "Coming Next Week" promo.)

[Jester]

I liked this episode, but I definitely did not love it. Like the last couple, it felt a bit more like Doctor Who, with the Doctor generally ahead of everyone else, but sometimes even ahead of (or behind) himself.

Clara was very good in this episode, though Danny pointed out her shirking of her teacher responsibilities.

One small problem I had was that I, Mr. Oblivious, knew what the trees were there for early on. It seems very obvious to me that they were there to protect in some way, and I even had an idea that it would be the extra oxygen to burn off the solar flare. And I'm not a botanist, nor do I usually see where these episodes are going.

One GIANT problem I had with this episode was the Doctor's attitude near the end. When all seemed lost, Nine, Ten, and Eleven, in different ways, would all be banging their head against the wall trying to figure it out, yelling, "Think! Think! Think!" Or "What am I missing?" or some such. Twelve? He just basically gave up, said "Sorry, can't help--who wants to go watch your planet get destroyed?" And it wasn't until he had given up, and the piddly humans had gone away to die with their families that suddenly it became clear to him, by chance, not by effort of mental will.

Say what you will about the Eccleston, Tennant, or Smith eras, but can you picture any of them doing that, ever? I can't. Not from the joyous Time Lord who shouted with glee that, "Everyone lives, Rose! Just this one time, everyone lives!" Not from the defiant Time Lord who barked, "I'm the Doctor. I'm a Time Lord. I'm from the planet Gallifrey in the Constellation of Kasterborous. I'm 903 years old and I'm the man who is gonna save your lives and all 6 billion people on the planet below. You got a problem with that?" Not from the angry Time Lord who with quiet but undeniable authority and fury threatened the Atraxi with "Hello. I'm The Doctor. Basically...run.

It is as River Song predicted: the Doctor rose to his greatest heights, as evidenced by the hoopla and insanity surrounding the changeover, and now he is falling further than that. This is NOT my Doctor.

[Moirae]

This last episode? It was "The Happening". Meh. It wasn't a good movie and wasn't a good tv show either.

Getting kind of sick of the "riding along with the companion" when the show is supposed to be about Dr Who. The two episodes before this one were good.

[Shangri-laschild]

If Capaldi's main difference from previous Doctors is supposed to be that he's willing to let people be killed, I may start throwing things >.<

I wouldn't say this is new to this doctor. I've been rewatching through the Smith seasons (have to wait on the previous seasons because I'm supposed to watch them with someone) and in the episodes with the dinosaurs in space, he switched things so that the missiles were tracking the bad guy's ship.

I'm rather disappointed with this doctor and with the intense focus on Clara's life.

From what I understand, Clara is only supposed to be around until about Christmas. Then I believe The Doctor is supposed to get a new companion.

I would guess that there is all the focus on her life because she is leaving. There was a lot more focus on Rory and Amy's life before they left. They might not be doing a very good job showing Clara's life but that might be the reason.

With rewatching through, I had an interesting moment of recognizing something. The garden that we see Missy in at the end of Deep Breath is the same one from when Amy is stuck in Two Streams. Looked it up and it's not the first time that garden has been used. https://welldidyouevah.wordpress.com...1-deep-breath/ Not sure if that will come into play or if it's just a garden they reused.

I have noticed that there is a lot of comments from the doctor about things seeming familiar or him trying to remember things. It didn't start this season either, it seems to have started around when Clara was brought in and increased a lot more this season.

I do wonder if him not dying where his grave was supposed to be and the whole outcome at Trenzalor changing as well as the being gifted a regeneration is meant to have had an effect on him. He didn't kill the Timelords, but he can't exactly save them at the moment either. A lot of things that could come into play but might not. It definitely does seem to be a lot of confusing stuff together and whether it's the writers or the actors (possibly both) I'd say the new doctor and Clara just don't work well together and honestly I liked Clara so it's not that. Hopefully the show figures itself out soon or actually starts making things make sense in whatever is planned with the overall story line.

[strawbabies]

I don't have anything particularly insightful to say, but I absolutely hated the last two episodes.

I'm also sick and tired of them putting Clara's stupid ass students on the show. They're obnoxious. Doctor Who takes place in the same universe as Torchwood, and frankly, I wouldn't have been upset with those kids being handed over to the aliens in Children of Earth.

[Kheldarson]

Just watched it. Got rather bored during it. Mostly because of Clara and Danny.

But when did the Doctor become so blasé about letting folks on the Tardis?

And him giving up was disappointing.

Just meh all around.

[Kheldarson]

So who called that Missy was the Master?

Cuz you just won a prize.

Not sure if I completely buy the twist on the Cybermen, but I'll go with it.

Also. How'd the hell the Master get out of the time lock?

[gremcint]

I picked up on the cybermen from the symbols on the doors, and then clued into the dark water bit a few minutes before the reveal which was neat. I would actually rather they brought back either the Rani or Romana or something like that rather than the master. Well the master controlling an army of cybermen it kind of reminds me of both of his previous plans (converting humans). I really wish they had done more to build her up over the season because I just don't really feel that much menace from her.

As for the genderchanging, I'm fine with it depending on how they handle it. My biggest issue with the female doctor theories going around last year was that I don't the writing team could be trusted to handle it well.

[KabeRinnaul]

Also. How'd the hell the Master get out of the time lock?

We found this out later, but for anyone else who's wondering:

Go rewatch "Day of the Doctor", the anniversary special.

You should do this because it was wonderful, but also because it answers this question.

After the three Doctors and Clara exit the stasis cube painting in the vault, a woman's hand grabs the frame from the inside. It doesn't belong to Rose/the Moment/Bad Wolf, and Clara is too far away. Someone else followed them out.

[mjr]

Ok, my wife and I are a bit confused about a few things about the episode last night. If someone could help us out (either here or through PM) that would be great...

1. What's the deal with them "feeling" temperature? I don't know who he was, but the guy told Danny that his body could feel temperature changes in the "Nethersphere" even though he was dead. Therefore, if he were on a table at a morgue, he would feel cold (which he did). So it follows that if he were to be cremated, he would feel that burning as intense pain.

2. Missy said something about "saving" the consciousness (or something like that) and "upgrading" the body. Why would she need to save the consciousness?

3. I'm not entirely sure why Missy would align with the Cybermen. I don't know enough about the series, I suppose, to see why this would make sense.

4. Were the Cybermen going out to collect the already dead, or to kill more people? Missy made some sort of statement that "the dead outnumber the living".

5. How could Missy take over the afterlife? Unless the dead aren't really dead...

[Kheldarson]

Ok, my wife and I are a bit confused about a few things about the episode last night. If someone could help us out (either here or through PM) that would be great...

1. What's the deal with them "feeling" temperature? I don't know who he was, but the guy told Danny that his body could feel temperature changes in the "Nethersphere" even though he was dead. Therefore, if he were on a table at a morgue, he would feel cold (which he did). So it follows that if he were to be cremated, he would feel that burning as intense pain.

Well, what you went on to explain is the point. You feel what your body is feeling, therefore you can be made to suffer even after death. I imagine it's part of how they convince the souls to delete their personalities and join the Cybermen willingly.

2. Missy said something about "saving" the consciousness (or something like that) and "upgrading" the body. Why would she need to save the consciousness?

Because Cybermen are androids. They're humans who have "improved" themselves by cutting away emotions and replacing a majority of themselves with metal. You have to have a body and a consciousness to become a Cyberman.

3. I'm not entirely sure why Missy would align with the Cybermen. I don't know enough about the series, I suppose, to see why this would make sense.

The Master is usually out to conquer and rule planets. If he/she is in control of the hive mind, then the Cybermen become the perfect enforcement of her rule.

4. Were the Cybermen going out to collect the already dead, or to kill more people? Missy made some sort of statement that "the dead outnumber the living".

Probably more the latter. Remember that you need a consciousness to work the Cyber body. But who knows how long Missy has been at this plot. That's what she probably meant by "dead outnumber the living".

5. How could Missy take over the afterlife? Unless the dead aren't really dead...

That's a possibility. It's also possible that Time Lord tech allows her to catch the last moment of consciousness. Don't know.

[mjr]

I imagine it's part of how they convince the souls to delete their personalities and join the Cybermen willingly.

But wouldn't the same thing apply? I mean, if the soul exists and the personality is deleted, is it the personality or the soul that's tied to the body?

Because Cybermen are androids. They're humans who have "improved" themselves by cutting away emotions and replacing a majority of themselves with metal. You have to have a body and a consciousness to become a Cyberman.

So they're sort of a cross between Data and the Borg?

[Kheldarson]

But wouldn't the same thing apply? I mean, if the soul exists and the personality is deleted, is it the personality or the soul that's tied to the body?

It's more a separation between intellect and emotion. The Cybermen are all about reason and logic, viewing emotions as something that holds yo back from perfection. Beyond that, that's more existential than I want to get right now.

So they're sort of a cross between Data and the Borg?

More like the Borg were based on them. Borg appeared in 1989. Cybermen have been around since 1966. And to get it out if the way, the Cylons first appeared in 1978.

[KatherineB]

It's also possible that Time Lord tech allows her to catch the last moment of consciousness.

The Matrix existed on Gallifrey to do exactly that. We saw in The Deadly Assassin (Fourth Doctor) how people's knowledge would be extracted. This is a transcript from the scene where the audience learns about it first:

SPANDRELL [Castellan of the Chancellery Guard on Gallifrey]: What is the Master like on mathematics?
DOCTOR: He's brilliant, absolutely brilliant. He's almost up to my standard. What's that?
ENGIN [works in the Gallifreyan archives]: The APC control.
DOCTOR: APC?
ENGIN: Amplified Panatropic Computations.
DOCTOR: Brain cells.
ENGIN: Yes. Trillions of electrochemical cells in a continuous matrix. The cells are the repository of departed Time Lords. At the moment of death, an electrical scan is made of the brain pattern and these millions of impulses are immediately transferred to the...
DOCTOR: Shush. I understand the theory. What's the function?
ENGIN: Well, to monitor life in the Capitol. We use all this combined knowledge and experience to predict future developments.

The Doctor is then sent into the Matrix, which, IMHO, is some of Tom Baker's best acting. If you haven't seen that series, I highly recommend it as we see Gallifrey, the Time Lords, and a brilliant storyline.

The Matrix appears again in Trial of a Time Lord and a variety of other stories in different forms (comics, prose, audio) so it's a well-used concept.