ROTJ and the Sith "rule of two"...

[mjr]

Since I can't talk to my wife about "The Last Jedi" yet (because she hasn't seen it yet, and no spoilers!) we started talking about ROTJ.

Recall that Vader was trying to turn Luke to the Dark Side, and was delivering him to the Emperor.

But the Sith "rule of two" dictates that there's always a Master and an Apprentice.

So that brings up a few questions:

1. How do Sith spread? It would seem like there would be a limited number of them, since there's 1 master and 1 apprentice. The Jedi don't seem to have such a rule.

2. The Emperor could easily "end" (i.e. kill) Vader AND Luke. Though I do believe in certain respects Vader was more powerful than the Emperor -- and the Emperor knew it.

3. Vader suggested, as an attempt to "turn" Luke, that they kill the Emperor and rule the galaxy "as father and son" (IIRC). It's possible that Vader meant that Luke should kill the Emperor (as one more step to turning to the Dark Side).

4. The Emperor tried to goad Luke into killing Vader. Luke didn't, which led to Vader/Anakin's "redemption".

So would Vader have just been cast aside, or what? Because recall, too, that Vader actually kept Luke from killing the Emperor.

I don't think the three of them could have functioned, given the rule of two.

[Tama]

Well he ordered Dooku killed in the interest of Anakin, who's to say he wouldn't do the same when someone younger came in?

[mjr]

Well he ordered Dooku killed in the interest of Anakin, who's to say he wouldn't do the same when someone younger came in?

I understand that point, but wouldn't that mean that Vader knew he was possibly the one to be killed? By attempting to turn Luke to the Dark Side, and the Emperor wanting Luke to turn to the Dark Side, that means that Vader was "odd man out", and would be killed -- either by Luke or the Emperor.

[AnaKhouri]

From my limited understanding: in general, the master would take an apprentice, eventually, because both are hungry for power, the apprentice would challenge the master and attempt to kill him. If he's successful, the apprentice becomes the master and takes his own apprentice, and if not the master just gets a new apprentice. So Vader would have known that eventually it would come to that, but he probably also knew he wasn't strong enough to challenge Sidious and was maybe waiting until his power as Emperor was more cemented so he could just take over as Emperor if he won. Luke would probably have been his apprentice then. If Sidious took on Luke, he would have killed Vader, or had Luke do it.

The Sith have the two-person rule because they were defeated and decimated by the Jedi in olden times, so only having two at a time makes it easier to stay on the DL. If the Emperor had been successful I assume he would have kept the rule to limit the possibility of other Sith challenging him. The Jedi look for people who are strong in the force and encourage them to excel, but the Sith want power for themselves.

This rule doesn't seem to be absolute though (even though that's what the Sith deal in, hee hee) because in Clone Wars Darth Maul is wounded by Obi-wan but doesn't actually die, popping up again later to cause trouble, and Sidious takes another apprentice anyway.

But like I said my knowledge is limited so maybe someone else can set me straight if I'm wrong. The answer may be that there are so many timelines and variations that who the hell knows!

[lordlundar]

1. How do Sith spread? It would seem like there would be a limited number of them, since there's 1 master and 1 apprentice. The Jedi don't seem to have such a rule.

Technically, they don't. The Sith concept of the Force is that it is a finite concept, so by limiting the amount that use it, they increase their own strength. It's a selfish attitude, but that is part of the Sith concept.

2. The Emperor could easily "end" (i.e. kill) Vader AND Luke. Though I do believe in certain respects Vader was more powerful than the Emperor -- and the Emperor knew it.

3. Vader suggested, as an attempt to "turn" Luke, that they kill the Emperor and rule the galaxy "as father and son" (IIRC). It's possible that Vader meant that Luke should kill the Emperor (as one more step to turning to the Dark Side).

4. The Emperor tried to goad Luke into killing Vader. Luke didn't, which led to Vader/Anakin's "redemption".

So would Vader have just been cast aside, or what? Because recall, too, that Vader actually kept Luke from killing the Emperor.

I don't think the three of them could have functioned, given the rule of two.

The Emperor was running a flawed Xanatos Gambit. His idea was that either Vader would kill Luke and he would then retain Vader until another Force Adept came along that he could corrupt and kill Vader, or Luke would kill Vader and become his new apprentice.

Now a couple of things of note here:
- Vader could POSSIBLY have been stronger than the Emperor, but he never BELIEVED he was stronger. The Emperor kept Vader psychologically limited to minimize Vader's threat.
- Vader and Luke combined definitely are stronger than the Emperor, which is why he pitted the two against each other.

Now the reason why the Xanatos Gambit is flawed is because while he thought he would win no matter the outcome, he didn't anticipate Luke getting through to Vader and turning against him, whether it was a pair of Jedi (as was in the movie) or a pair of Sith (ie Luke goes Dark Side and the two overthrow the Emperor) but again, like greed, arrogance is a Sith trait. It could also be a Force trait as the Jedi seem to hit that mark as well in the movies.

[Tanasi]

Not trying to stifle the conversation but check out Stupendous Wave on the YouseTube. He has addressed this and many other SW questions.
Vader had a few apprentices but I think they were secret.
It seems that most of the SW canon has occurred outside of the movies. From the animated to books to comics even video games all has to be approved by GL to make sure it follows his vision. I wonder if Disney will be that tight with the canon?

[Android Kaeli]

I'm still a bit out of the loop with the stuff prior to Lucas selling off the rights to Star Wars, and some of the newer stuff outside of the last three movie.

But the way I figure Sith works, and the Dark Side of the force, was that there was always just enough Sith to not go unnoticed but not a whole lot that there were a lot of conflicts. I don't think Sith were as wide-spread as the time of the Original Trilogy or even around the time of the Prequels, but had been more of a presence anywhere between the time of the first Knights of the Old Republic game and some time before the Prequels began. Or at least right around the time Yoda was born [he was 900-something years old when he died in ROTJ].

Vader was strong, Palpatine knew it well before Anakin became Vader, so I think that there was some tiptoeing around going on between Master and Apprentice. However Vader knew that Palpatine wouldn't have been able to be killed so easily, I'm going to echo lordlundar while also adding onto the fact that Vader was also "more machine than man" and Palpatine knew Force Lightning. As seen towards the end of ROTJ when Vader threw the Emperor into the shaft, said Force Lightning pretty much fried all of the suit Vader wore to keep him alive -- he knew that was a possibility should he try to go up against his master.

[EricKei]

This rule doesn't seem to be absolute though (even though that's what the Sith deal in, hee hee)

But of course...ONLY (*aHEM*) Sith deal in absolutes, my dear Darth Obi-Wan...

The Emperor kept Vader psychologically limited to minimize Vader's threat.

It's my understanding that he kept Vader *physically* limited, as well. Palp intentionally designed the suit to be restrictive and heavily flawed, causing Vader constant pain, and forcing (Ha!) him to constntly waste Force energy alleviating said pain, maintaining his own life functions in ways in which the suit fell short (e.g., breathing) and simply moving around in the damn thing.

[Rodimal]

In later fiction its also revealed that Palpatine couldn't care less about the Rule of Two and intended to have all the powers of the Darkside for himself (and become Immortal in the process). In the beginning Anakin Skywalker was friend and confidant (or at least has close as Palpatine would allow someone to be. If nothing else he cared about Anakin), however, Darth Vader, a broken half-man, was just a means to that end.

[mjr]

It's my understanding that he kept Vader *physically* limited, as well. Palp intentionally designed the suit to be restrictive and heavily flawed, causing Vader constant pain, and forcing (Ha!) him to constntly waste Force energy alleviating said pain, maintaining his own life functions in ways in which the suit fell short (e.g., breathing) and simply moving around in the damn thing.

Wouldn't this mean that Palpatine knew that Vader was going to sustain the injuries he did? Because I don't know what the timeframe is from the time Palpatine found Vader on Mustafar to when his armor/bionics/etc were installed, but if Palpatine intentionally designed the suit, was it an "on the fly" thing, or did he have it ready to go?

And if Palpatine had a certain level of clairvoyance, wouldn't Vader, also?

[EricKei]

Well, we know there had to be SOME time passed off-screen in between Vader getting rescued from the lava pits and getting to the medical facility. Also, someone in Palp's position could probably get a suit made to his standards in nothing flat (waves hand "You have no priorities higher than this one...There will be no rush fee. I don't care if it doesn't work exactly right -- in fact, I prefer it that way. Complete this to my satisfaction in twelve hours or you...will....die!") ---- twelve hours later "Yesss. YES! Perfect. Exactly how I wanted it done. Well done, artisan." kills him anyway and cackles with glee).

As for clairvoyance -- Yes, absolutely. However, we must remember that Palp was, at the time, a FAR more experienced Force-user than Vader was, especially when it came to the Dark Side. It could simply be that Vader either didn't yet know about that ability, or simply had minimal instruction nor practice using it (knowledge that Palp could certainly hold over him). After all, Vader didn't foresee himself getting his ass kicked, did he? Palp probably did, and planned accordingly.