Help needed: I want to avoid the Friendzone

[AdminAssistant]

I'm short. Short and dumpy. I never thought I would find someone who would find me sexy. I did. Sometimes I second-guess it...but he is very...um...insistent. It doesn't have much to do with the physical, to be honest (although the rack doesn't hurt matters).

And when it comes to the...errr...package. Honey, it ain't what you got it's what you can do with it. I've dated guys in a variety of sizes and the smaller ones happened to be the better lovers. The bigger issue is learning how to please a woman, and that has absolutely nothing to do with size.

And it has been medically proven that race has absolutely nothing to do with size.

[Jester]

Spending time in a college where I was pretty much the only metalhead taught me that girls outside the metal community are, generally speaking, afraid of metalheads. Which is something I have come to accept, making it so that I won't even bother trying if a girl I like isn't a metalhead.

Horse puckey. You are taking your experience with one small group of girls (those from your college days) and assuming that all of womanhood acts and believes just like them. You are making a lot of assumptions based on very little information, and are thus very much limiting yourself. If you don't want to sell yourself (or women in general) short, I suggest you start opening your mind to bigger possibilities than what your assumptions are currently allowing for.

The way I see it, being well hung is a plus, and one that is apparent from his skin color, so that at first sight he is a better partner than I am, and I am fairly sure first impression means a LOT.

Not to belabor a theme, but the above paragraphs is 100% pure unadulterated excrement.

Firstly, I have known black men who were not well hung, and white men who were extraordinarily well-endowed. How do I know such things? I live in a place with clothing optional establishments, among other oddities, and so such observations aren't that tough. I don't, for example, have to take anyone's word on such things. At least not those who also frequent said establishments.

Look, as we learned from the classic movie "White Men Can't Jump," just because someone looks like a goofy-ass white dork doesn't mean they ARE a goofy-ass white dork. Looks can be deceving. I, for example, often shock people with my ability to dance. (I still can't dunk a basketball, but that has more to do with my being short and athletically limited rather than my being white.)

But let's for the moment assume your racial endowment assumption were true. (It isn't.) So. Fucking. What. Size, as has been pointed out, does not in and of itself make one a better lover. It may help, sure, but it is but one small, small factor in the process. And, as I said earlier, if this is what your Lady Fair is basing her dating decisions on, then she isn't worth a sack of manure.

You are "fairly sure that first impressions mean a lot." First impressions are just that....first impressions. They mean, in the long run, squat. Some of my closests friends, when they first met me, thought I was the biggest, most obnoxious prick they had ever met. Had they stuck with their first impressions, they would have missed out on a very caring, very loyal friend, who is fun to be around. When I first met my ex-fiance, I found her to be the most arrogant, obnoxious, rude, exasperating woman I had ever met. If I had stuck with my first impression and allowed that to form my final opinion of her, I would have missed out on the gre3atest love of my life and the best year of my life.

As I said above, you have a lot of assumptions that are based on nothing. And they are, frankly, wrong. If you continue to lock yourself in to said assumptions, you are going to severely limit your opportunities and possibilities in life.

To put it bluntly, pull your head out of your ass, dude.

Exactly Jester. You just word it better than I can

Blas, don't sell yourself short. You word things very well yourself.

[Boozy]

And it has been medically proven that race has absolutely nothing to do with size.

This is true, and nothing more needs to be said on the subject.

Having established that, let's move away from discussing crass stereotypes and get back to providing constructive advice.

[taurinejunkie]

Whew. A lot of info to take in here. Thanks everyone.

" If you can pull of scary without actually BEING a bad guy...you will be golden."

There are definitely things about me that may be scary and gold at the same time. For example, I wouldn't think twice before giving anyone one notch worse than the witnessed level of mistreating a woman; and I myself would never mistreat a woman. Sure, I'll call the female SCs bitches, and I do admit that I may have underestimated the level of traits my current interest looks for in a man, but I still respect women a lot more than some guys I know.

"Also, got news for you, big wangs do not immediately equal good lovers. Big wangs also do not immediately equal a fun date, a good boyfriend, or any other equally foolish assumption."

Hopefully a man who is already financially low and still willing to pay for everything when it comes to the date, a man who realizes 'boyfriend' is a status that takes work to keep, a man who is willing to exhaust himself to within an inch of death if that is what it takes to please a woman, is a better man than one who only has a big wang. And hopefully I will be seen as I am, a man who will give all he has if that's what it takes.

"Well, any metal shows you could go to? You need to do something that will give you both something to talk about after.
Whatever you do, do not say something like "You want to go out sometimes?" Kiss of death. Don't ever say that. Say something like "Come with me to (whatever it is you decide on) this saturday. I promise you'll have fun."
That's confident, it's decisive, and sounds like you've got a plan."

She's going to see Slipknot on April 28th, I learned from her MSN personal message thingy. I'll be there. If she wants to go crowd surfing, I'll do my best to get her crowdsurfing and will avoid any bad "male under female crowdsurfer" etiquette. If she wants to get in the pit, I'll stick close to her, and do my best so that anyone hitting her harder than they should will regret it. As far as the "come with me" part goes... She has a car, I'm stuck riding the bus (does that single fact immediately mean I'm SOL?), so it would be more like "Meet me at (place, time). It'll be fun." or something.

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"Honey, it ain't what you got it's what you can do with it. [...] The bigger issue is learning how to please a woman, and that has absolutely nothing to do with size."

I'm not too experienced (done it only three times and I'm 20). That being said, if things go that far, I'll do what she wants. If for example she wants 'harder' and I can go harder, I will, regardless of how exhausted I end up.

And it has been medically proven that race has absolutely nothing to do with size.

Good news if I've ever heard any.

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If you don't want to sell yourself short, I suggest you start opening your mind to bigger possibilities than what your assumptions are currently allowing for.

I'll do my best.

As I said above, you have a lot of assumptions that are based on nothing. And they are, frankly, wrong. If you continue to lock yourself in to said assumptions, you are going to severely limit your opportunities and possibilities in life.

To put it bluntly, pull your head out of your ass, dude.

I'll do my best.

[Melicious Motormouth]

Dating one of my co-workers worked for me. We're still dating - a year later. Kinda. (Long story). Maybe it worked out because we kept it a secret for months, and I was close to quitting by the time we got serious and everyone found out.

A lot of people here advised against dating a co-worker. And I've heard both sides: for some people it's worked out, for others, it hasn't. I guess you can say it's a crapshoot - much like dating itself.

You seem really interested in her, so I say go for it! I mean, it's a plus that you both share some similar interests. And she seems to like you, at least, as a person!

Be confident. You seem to have some insecurities, but you shouldn't let them show. Think about all the good qualities you do have and let them shine! And take your time. Get to know her. It's not a race, hun.

Good luck! I wish you the best!

[blas]

Insecurities scare girls away just like they can scare guys away when it's the girl who has insecurities.

Neither gender would classify insecurites as a turn-on.

[Seshat]

Interest in other guys, well there's another guy who seems to be possibly interested in her, and who is, by race, naturally better equipped to please a woman

Guys vary in size. So what? So do women!

I mean it. Women vary in size as well. Some women are naturally capacious, some women are naturally small. With Kegel exercises, women who are naturally wider can become effectively tighter.

And women who are naturally narrow can train a certain amount of stretch in (since the area is designed to let a baby's head through). But as anyone who's ever seen a childbirth video can attest, there's a limit to how far a woman can stretch without pain.

And a woman cannot become longer! There's no way to do that. Some women enjoy a certain amount of cervical bumping, but to other women it's agony. And even women who enjoy it, only enjoy so much of it!

So women who are short and tight are definitely not looking for the giants! Really, really, really not. They want the shorter, narrower men. Anatomy dictates it.

I also know that I'm a metalhead, which means my dating pool is reduced to metalhead girls, and she's the only one I know, and it seemed like it would have worked fine

You know, if I knew the only reason a guy was interested in me is because I was the 'only girl he knew' in a particular social circle, I'd be pretty insulted.

Stop restricting yourself to metalheads. There's more to you than the music you listen to! Find other things you like. Go to their social events. Meet their social circle. Maybe you like Cavalier King Charles Spaniels: go to events about toy and small dogs. Or you paint: go to art events. Or you like to run: go to orienteering and running events.

Meet women who enjoy the other things you enjoy. Then you can introduce them to the joys of metal, and they can introduce you to the myriad themes of country music.

[taurinejunkie]

As far as 'dating a coworker' goes, if things fuck up I can very easily avoid her almost completely, and 100% with a bit of luck. If things don't fuck up I can very easily spend a lot of time in close proximity to her.

I've done my best to not let her know of my insecurities, and I would think I've done a better job this time than any time in the past.

I'm off to work in about an hour and a half, and then I'll update on situation in the evening.

[Jester]

Just in case anyone thinks I am here just to criticize our friend 411, let me say that much of what he said I found to be very positive, and I have high hopes for him. But I do believe in constructive criticism, which is what the comments below are intended as. Hell, I wish *I* had had this kind of advice (meaning everyone, not just me) when I was his age!

Hopefully a man who is already financially low and still willing to pay for everything when it comes to the date...

Dude, it's 2009. Guys don't have to pay for everything, and frankly I think that women who allow that or, worse, expect it are just as chauvinistic as men who think a woman's place is in the bedroom or kitchen. I will probably get some heat for this, but seriously, folks....if we're going to talk about equality between the sexes, let's not just pay it lip service. And I'll end that particular commentary hear before Ree warns me about taking it to fratching. After all, I am not trying to start a debate, merely open our young friend's eyes to other possibilities beyond is current preconceptions.

If she wants to get in the pit, I'll stick close to her, and do my best so that anyone hitting her harder than they should will regret it.

Um, my experience has been that girls who get in the pit not only know what to expect, but want to give and get as good as the pit has. I myself have been knocked down by a girl much smaller than me who was tearing it up in a pit. To "protect" her when she is in the pit on her own accord seems to be to go against metalhead etiquette and, frankly, might piss her off. I know it would piss off MY female metalhead friends! After all, people get in the pit for a REASON, and it is one of the only places where hitting a girl is not only acceptable, but part of the deal. Before anyone jumps on me for that one, understand that by "hitting" I mean the usual moshpit bodychecking, bodyslamming, and running into one another, NOT coldcocking, punching, slapping, or anything like that, which of course is not only not cool to do to women, it is not cool to do to anyone in the pit. Anyone who's been in a pit should know what I mean, and anyone who hasn't probably has no idea what I'm talking about.

As far as the "come with me" part goes... She has a car, I'm stuck riding the bus (does that single fact immediately mean I'm SOL?), so it would be more like "Meet me at (place, time). It'll be fun." or something.

If it means you are SOL, that says a lot (negatively) about her. Not everyone has a car, especially at your age. So what? And why does that mean you can't invite her out? Why does that automatically mean you can't initiate the date/event? No, you can't drive. Be up front about that. You have no car. But rather than seeming like a freeloader, you would be more than happy to pay for the gas for her car. Or borrow a friend's car. Or whatever. The possibilities are endless if you simply open your mind to them.

I'm not too experienced (done it only three times and I'm 20). That being said, if things go that far, I'll do what she wants.

Hey, learning is half the fun. But if/when it gets to that point, have fun, do what she wants, but also what you want....whatever you do, and I mean this both regarding the relationship and any sexual encounters you may have, do NOT allow yourself to become a doormat to her or any other woman. Ever.

[Nyoibo]

whatever you do, and I mean this both regarding the relationship and any sexual encounters you may have, do NOT allow yourself to become a doormat to her or any other woman. Ever.

Unless that actually happens to be your thing.

[taurinejunkie]

Jester: First off, your advice is pretty much the kind of advice I was looking for. I think I should clear up that my initial warning was written because on another forum I post on, any thread like this one would quickly turn into people laughing at me all over the place. This forum seems way more friendly though, which I like a lot. So, unless you're a pyromaniac, don't go DIAF.

In global response to your last post: I know that many (if not most or all) girls can pay for their stuff, watch themselves in a pit, etc. and therefore don't need my help. But I also think I should offer that help, and definitely not push if she says "no, thanks". And, because I'm the reason why she has to drive out, I will of course offer to pay for gas.

And, as Nyoibo hinted at, I *do* have a submissive instinct when it comes to women.

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On to the Good News. Basically I called her last night, and immediately went to the important stuff after the "how's it going" bit. It went something like this.

Me: Do you like Thai food?
Girl: Yeah, I don't eat it often but I like it. Why?
M: Well I know an awesome Thai restaurant in (mall). Wanna go there with me next Friday, April 3rd?

[she had told me a few days ago she'll be spending this weekend in another city, so I knew that wouldn't work. I know (because we can check others' schedules to offer shift changes) she's off on 4/03. More time for her to get prepared and to show up more gorgeous at the restaurant than she already is at work, I'd think. Which would be a big yay.]

G: Yeah, sure.
Me: So... I get off work at 15 to 6PM, and with the buses I can get to the mall for about 6:20. We can meet at the restaurant around 6:30?
G: Alright.

We talked for a few more minutes after that, and then I tried to come post here but my internet was being a dick.

I need new pants, a shave (and a freakin' close one, just to be on the safe side), and most of all I need you guys to prepare me for any eventuality.

And, as a sidenote, this isn't a waitered restaurant, just part of the foodcourt. Does the 'class' of the restaurant matter or is it more about going somewhere we both enjoy?

[Rapscallion]

You're overpreparing. You're still putting her on a pedestal.

If she has any interest in you, she'll be panicking as well.

Chill.

Rapscallion

[Greenday]

Here's my preparation for a date:

1. Shower
2. Shave
3. Get dressed

Yea, that's it. Amazing isn't it? Use what you've got. Wear a polo or something like that. Don't overdo the axe or anything if you use body spray. And that's it. Getting ready for a date shouldn't be complex. Nice and simple as if you are going out with friends.

[taurinejunkie]

The pants thing is because I only wear black jeans except for the really high-class events where I'll use the pants from my prom night suit. Which would be over-the-top for this I guess. And all of my jeans are torn on the knees.

I'll shower just before I go to work. Anti-perspirant and shave done some six hours before the event, and very little physical activity in-between, I think I'll be good.

And I don't have anything between t-shirts (most are Children of Bodom or Metallica) and button-up shirts which I think may be a bit too classy. Knowing she likes the Legend of Zelda series, should I go with my Hylian Crest t-shirt, or would that come across as making too huge an effort to please her?

Also:

If she has any interest in you, she'll be panicking as well.

It flatters my evil side that I could possibly make a girl panic in a good way.

[blas]

Holes in your jeans or worn jeans are all the style right now. No one will notice or care unless the holes are in the crotch or butt of your jeans, I promise!