Sooo what do you do when you don't want to get married? (long)

[ShadowBall]

This is something that crosses my mind from time to time, because I'm not really sure how to handle it. I have not gotten a proposal or anything, but I know my BF intends to someday. The thing is I don't really want to get married - I never have. Not that I don't want to marry HIM, but I just don't want to be married in general.

I have my reasons...too expensive, I believe it's unnecessary, and I've seen way too many marriages fall apart for me to believe I'd be the exception. That, and BF and I each would want very different things out of a legal union. For example:

1. He wants a traditional ceremony with all the bells and whistles, me in an ugly frumpy dress walking through a church in front of tons of people.
Why this sucks: If I had to pick, I'd want to elope because I hate churches, I'm no longer Catholic (he's not religious either), I hate dresses and white clothing, I have horrible anxiety/panic attacks being the center of attention, I don't want to have to figure out who to invite, and it would just be far too stressful and expensive for a "normal" wedding. I have no money, he has no money, we will likely never have money, and neither of our families have money, so I'd love to know how he intends to pay for a wedding. Ya know what I'd wanna wear? A zoot suit. BF got mad when I told him that.

2. He wants me to take his surname.
Why this sucks: Taking his name would mean I would need to start back at square one professionally. All published work I've done would be meaningless because I would no longer be Shadowball (maiden name). I'd have to start over. I'd rather keep my name. He refuses to consider taking mine.

3. He wants to stay in this same area forever.
Why this sucks: No jobs, either in my field or in general. I would rather move nearer to a city so I would have a better chance of being employed. He wants to be near our friends and inherit his parents' house and live there forever.

4. He wants kids.
Why this sucks: I don't want kids, not now, not ever. I have told him this, but he still occasionally says things that imply he thinks he's going to have children with me someday. Glad he takes me seriously. I don't want to marry someone who I'll have to divorce because he loves potential kids he's never met more than he loves the woman he's been with for several years.

I worry he's going to pull a dick move like propose in public so I will feel obligated to say "yes" so I don't come off as a bitch. I feel like I can't tell him I don't want to get married because he'll think I mean I don't love him. That's not true - I love him very dearly and I want to be with him. I just don't hold much faith in marriage and I'm totally content with our relationship as it is now - why change what works? I have hinted to him that I don't want to get married by saying things like, "I don't need a marriage to be with you forever." But odds are he didn't catch on.

I suggested a Vegas wedding once and he said he wouldn't want to pay to fly our friends and some relatives all out there. Which is funny because I bet it'd be cheaper than a normal wedding with a dress and reception and food/drinks/etc.

My current plan is if he ever proposes, I'll just say "yes." I figure since we'll never be able to afford a wedding, we'll never get married and just be engaged forever...or he'll bite the bullet and agree to a courthouse marriage. I also make sure he doesn't know my ring size; that may discourage him from getting a ring. Not that he has money for one anyway. I wouldn't even really want a ring anyway - I honestly think matching tattoos would be cool. Nothing huge or elaborate; just something we both like that doesn't involve our names. I doubt BF would like that, though; he's more of an old-fashioned romantic while I kind of hate traditional things.

I'm willing to maaaaaaybe compromise on some things (not the kids thing - that's already set in stone), but the way I see it, I am the one who will lose the most in each scenario if I caved to his preferences, so I'm kind of reluctant to even compromise.

Am I horrible for just not wanting to deal with organizing a wedding? I don't want to deal with writing invitations and figuring out who to invite and who to cater the event and flowers and securing a location for the reception and relatives trying to commandeer the event because weddings are "for the family" and not the marrying couple . It's just too much stress and money for a single goddamn day. If I HAD to get married, I would want to elope and maybe spend a few days on a mini-vacation/honeymoon. Nothing fancy, no gifts, no ceremony, no reception, no eleventy billion people. Just something easy that won't put me further in debt.

Anyone else ever dealt with this? What did you do? Is there some way to ensure I don't ever get married without hurting BF's feelings? I will say right now that breaking up is not an option and I will ignore anyone who suggests that. Sorry to cherry-pick advice, but I know that's going to be the auto-response most people come up with and it is just not helpful.

[Treasure]

um... show him this thread?

ok, if that's not exactly an option, sit him down and and have a frank and open discussion, explain to him that you don't put much faith in the "institution" of marriage, and you don't need the whole "dog & pony show" to know how you feel.

keep with "I" statements, and let him have his say too... write out a list (pro's/con's) of concerns -


maybe you can do what a lot of women have done, and that is use the maiden name as your professional one, and the married last name as your personal one, and people that can cross over, hyphenate

my ex fiance did the public proposal; I kind of knew it was coming, but the when/where/how not how I would've preferred it... it wasn't me; but I didn't feel pressured - cause I already knew that (at that time) I wanted to say yes... (now 2 weeks later i realized he was abusing drugs {again} and I kicked him out....)

the fact that you are willing to consider a JP ceremony is promising. You don't have to do the white dress - more and more brides are buying what are traditionally "bridesmaid" dresses - they're more likely to wear it again, and is cheaper.

Have you and the boyfriend discussed the possibility/option of co-habitation? for a lot of guys that cements the relationship for them. that may be what he's wanting - the concrete proof that ya'll are "one".

[Food Lady]

I'm probably not the best person to advise you, but maybe I can offer something. I do want to get married, but don't want kids. When I was younger I wanted the Big Wedding, but now that I'm in my 30s, I don't care. If I loved someone enough, the ceremony details would be secondary. And it would be my wedding. Who says I have to do a huge white dress or invite 300 people? Maybe you can bargain him down to a smaller wedding. Mention your financial setting and the fact that it's one day, as opposed to the rest of your lives together. The latter is more important. State it to him that way. Also, my dad's wife kept her last name and they have been happy for 9 years. The added adantage is that when telemarketers call and ask if he is Mr. [herlastname], he can honestly say, "There's no Mr. [herlastname] here."

[houdini]

Ditto the above. I also second the professional/married names; kids and same area is something that he may change his mind on over time, but could also be a potential source of problems.

Definately have a frank discussion - print the post out if you need to (or at least an edited version that doesn't put words in his mouth, but sets out what you think). A relationship is about comprimise, and it may be that if you can't comprimise on an important issue that affects your future (like children, or marriage) that's what splits you up. But if you can work it out, and both of you agree on something that will make you both happy, then you're stronger for it.

Also:

I worry he's going to pull a dick move like propose in public so I will feel obligated to say "yes" so I don't come off as a bitch.

SAY NO.

You're worried about sounding like a bitch: it's a question. If he has any idea about the above feelings - which, if he has any brains and pays the slightest bit of attention to you, and also if you have the above discussion with him, he should - then he is pulling the dick move by trying to force you into saying yes.

Random suggestions from my own experience that may help: we didn't have a normal wedding (similar issues to yours): we got married in the registry office (courthouse) with just family and close friends present, which was small enough that I was happy, and then had a huge party afterwards. I made my own dress, so it was very special, but it was blue and very classic vintage lines, not a wedding dress. We also did it very cheaply (hired a village hall, had fish&chips instead of a sit-down meal, pulled in favours from my family instead of wedding presents). You can do things differently - I'd recommend http://apracticalwedding.com/ as somewhere to that makes you realise you don't have to buy into the stupid wedding roundabout, and that it's the person you're committing to that actually matters.

And finally (I will stop ranting!) it's your life. Live it the way you want to, which includes the damn marriage stuff.

[csquared]

#3 & #4 are the two that jump out at me. Marriage or not, these two issues need to be resolved or one of you is not going to be happy.

[Der Cute]

Kids..that's HEAVY DUTY MARRIAGE SHIT.
My sister wanted kids. She got married to a guy, who'd already had his kids and got snipped. They did not discuss this before they got married, and she asked for a divorce about a year after they got married.

Money, Kids, Location are 3 HEAVY DUTY things to talk and agree upon in a marriage. If you don't come to some kind of conclusion/agreement, you're both fucked.

It sounds to me like you love-ish him, but not the idea of spending the rest of your life with him. That's always my big question to myself.
"Do you love him, self?" Yes, I do.
"can you stand him and live the rest of your life with him?" Uh..no, he drives me nuts.
That's a breaking point there.

[fireheart]

1. He wants a traditional ceremony with all the bells and whistles, me in an ugly frumpy dress walking through a church in front of tons of people.

If you do have anxiety issues, eloping sounds like a plan. You could even just have your parents and siblings (from both sides) attending.

2. He wants me to take his surname.

Two of my friends were married some time ago and they haven't changed their names. Unless you actually asked them, you wouldn't even be able to tell that they were married. They did a small fairytale-themed wedding outdoors with about 50 guests in attendance. (plus their wedding party)

3. He wants to stay in this same area forever.


4. He wants kids.

I would get these issues addressed ASAP.

I worry he's going to pull a dick move like propose in public so I will feel obligated to say "yes" so I don't come off as a bitch. I feel like I can't tell him I don't want to get married because he'll think I mean I don't love him.

There are plenty of de facto couples out there who love each other just fine without needing a marriage licence/certificate.

My current plan is if he ever proposes, I'll just say "yes." I figure since we'll never be able to afford a wedding, we'll never get married and just be engaged forever...or he'll bite the bullet and agree to a courthouse marriage.

The way a couple of my former coworkers are going, they'll be engaged forever or they'll break it off soon. (he popped the question straight out of high school)

I'm willing to maaaaaaybe compromise on some things (not the kids thing - that's already set in stone), but the way I see it, I am the one who will lose the most in each scenario if I caved to his preferences, so I'm kind of reluctant to even compromise.

As far as moving goes, if wherever you're moving isn't too far away from where you're living now, partner can always make roadtrips and make it a special event. My cousin relocated some time ago interstate and she comes back regularly. Everybody looks forward to seeing her.
If he's not wanting to leave because he'll "inherit" the house, then he needs to really sort his priorities out.

Am I horrible for just not wanting to deal with organizing a wedding?

No you are not horrible and I can understand the stress involved. I snipped the rest of the quote from there, but I HATE it when other people try and commandeer the ceremony. It's good to have someone to bounce ideas off of and to keep your head intact when you're freaking out, but if they start to try and take over, then they need to be cut out of wedding plans.

[Food Lady]

What Der cute said--sorry, I was tired when I posted and was thinking "What else did I want to say?" Kids are a huge responsibility and should be discussed. I have a father that did not want kids, and told us so--unimaginable hurt, even if it's never a verbalized fact. But he gave in to my mom anyway, and I did not have a relationship with him until I was well into adulthood. Show your boyfriend this post, and if he wants to ask me any questions, he's free to. I really, really mean it when I say I don't want kids, and I will not marry somene who does. It's less painful to be single.

[ShadowBall]

Oh trust me, I can assure you he's not Mr. Right Now. I know he's the one for me and I can see myself spending the rest of my life with him. Sometimes when I think about all these issues, though, how I may talk about him might sound a little angry and resentful. I don't intend for that to happen.

I did tell him about my anxiety being the center of attention. He seems to think I can just stop being anxious for one day, like I have an off switch. He doesn't have anxiety, so he doesn't understand that there's no control panel in my head where I can switch emotions on and off at will. Seriously I was mortified last year when my class threw a surprise party for me and sang to me. I wanted to curl up in the corner and die. I was happy, but terrified to be on the spot. Class speeches, graduations, anything where all eyes are on ME make me crazy.

We have had a couple discussions about kids...they were difficult. There have been times he hinted that he would be okay not having kids, and other times implying he wanted them. Frankly I think he'd be a negligent father, and I'm sure all the shit work would fall on me because I'm the woman. And it's real easy to say you want kids when someone else is expected to raise them for you. I think he'd be a father with "Kodakitis" - meaning he's in it for the Kodak moments and not the shit diapers and screaming and vomit and the downsides/work involved. I would want him to sit down and actually THINK about such things rather than just blindly saying, "Ugg want baby."

Personally, I'd like to move closer to NYC or Pittsburgh, which are about four and six hours from here, respectively. That's too far for him in either direction. I suppose I could go live wherever I want and he can live wherever he wants; I've heard of happily married couples living in separate homes, so maybe that could work for us. And as far as the house, I don't know why he'd want to live in it. It's in a shit neighborhood and it reeks from about a decade of indoor smoking. I bet the smoke stink is soaked right into the foundation and will come out if all the rugs, furniture and wallpaper are replaced. I bet he could rent it out to some chain-smoker and use the money to buy a smaller house or rent from someone.

If he were to ever try and propose, I'd be sitting his ass down to get all this shit on the table because as much as I love him, I'm not binding myself to someone legally and then having to listen to them bitch about not giving them kids or living where they want to live. I wish there was some way to get him to see that getting married will not make me love him more, nor is it necessary for us to be together. I think he seems to believe marriage = ultimate sign of love. Yeah, I'm sure that's why one out of every two marriages ends in divorce. I kind of see marriage as a way people brag to the rest of the world. Like, "Hey lookit my husband/wife! We've been married XX years and we're better than all you single fuckers!" which sounds more impressive than saying you've been dating for XX years.

Thanks all for the advice. This is by no means an issue at the current moment, but in the event BF proposes for some reason, I guess I want to be prepared.

[MaggieTheCat]

Just reiterating what others have said. You need to have a long, serious conversation with him about all of these issues, especially the kids issue. That can be a serious deal-breaker for some people. If he wants kids bad enough and you are adamant about never having kids, you had better start thinking about where this relationship is going and what your long-term plans are (both of you, not JUST you.)

As far as marriage goes -- do you not want to married at all, or is it just the wedding that you're not interested in? I ask, because when my husband and I first started dating, he told me he did not want to get married. After we were together for a while and had more talks about it, I found out he didn't mind the idea of being married, but he didn't want a wedding. So we eloped. It cost us like $150, and that includes parking downtown to get to the right building to get our marriage certificate. He did not want a big, expensive party with a lot of guests; besides it being, well, expensive, he is very uncomfortable around big groups (8+) of people.

Not that I'm trying to change your mind, but just to point out some benefits of being married vs. being in a long-term relationship: Insurance, being considered each others' next of kin, possible tax breaks...just to name a few. We largely got married when we did because I had no health insurance and we wanted to get me covered under his work's plan. Also, he got some really nice discounts on car insurance once we got married; a single, white, relatively young male is considered "high risk" but once you sign the papers, apparently you're "settled down." We pay less on insurance now to insure both of us than we did when he was single.

[Barracuda]

Yeah, it sounds to me like a serious heart to heart is in order. If he is set on having kids and staying put, then I'm sorry, but he needs to know now that if he stays with you, that's not going to happen. He has a right to know and to factor that into whether or not he wants to keep going as you have been, or look for someone else more in line with his dreams for the future. He has his views on marriage and kids; you have yours. He has his right to his views, just as you have yours. If those views are incompatible, both of you together need to decide if those views are more important to you than your relationship. If you do decide to get married, compromise on the wedding. Something far too many women (sorry ladies) forget is that the wedding IS the guy's day too. Instead of having no ceremony, what about a small, informal one? Meet him halfway. Having a lifelong relationship is all about finding compromises that both of you can live with. If you can't do that, the relationship can't last.

[Shangri-laschild]

I did tell him about my anxiety being the center of attention. He seems to think I can just stop being anxious for one day, like I have an off switch.

I'm not saying he's not the guy for you or anything on that level at all. And I don't know to what degree you two have talked about this kind of stuff. But that right there just seems insensitive to what exactly anxiety problems are. There is a difference between anxiety problems and just being very nervous just like there is a difference between being in a really bad stressed mood and dealing with depression. They may be similar and even go hand in hand, but the difference between the two is an important one. It may benefit the two of you if you could help him become more educated about anxiety. How it works and how it is for people. It may be that it just hasn't quite clicked in his head yet how it is for you. But even outside of this event, him not understanding is something that can cause difficulties so overall it may help.

I've never been all that huge into the idea of a wedding. The whole thing brings up a myriad of issues. The idea of being focused on for that long by all those people. The idea of having to stand still and focus for that long in and of itself makes me fidgety. Dealing with my mom's inevitable episode of being sad that I wasn't doing a wedding through the church (my parents are mormon so I can't just have the service where she'd like to appease her). All the planning and rushing. Not to mention just not feeling a huge push towards the idea. I'm not against it but honestly, unless the guy really wanted to I don't think I'd feel the need. And even then I don't think I could manage a fancy wedding or possibly even an intimate ceremony. There is nothing wrong with that.

I second the idea of making out a list for when you talk to him. It will help you explain everything. It's good that you plan on talking to him about all this. Good communication is very important especially for people to really understand who the other person is. For instance, with me, any guy who I thought understood me and cared about me enough would understand me enough to know that a public proposal would upset me. Even if up till that point I had been on board with the idea of it, it would make me start to doubt the idea. Not saying you should start doubting him, just that that is my take on things for myself. Try and help him understand the anxiety thing though. Make sure he takes you seriously about the things on the list rather than just saying "oh you'll be fine for one day" or "oh you'll want kids eventually". And be sure to not compromise on things that you are firm on. If you don't want kids, you shouldn't have kids. Compromise on the things that are less permanent or less of a sticking point for you so long as he's willing to meet you half way.

[auntiem]

This advice is from someone who is childfree by choice and "unmarried together" for 6 years (14 year relationship).
You have some serious dealbreakers on your list. I get that you love him and that love is stopping you from confronting these dealbreakers - I've been there. Choose which ones you won't bend on and present it to him as such.
As a lead in to a serious discussion about having a life together (married or not) pick up a copy of Unmarried Together and go thru the chapters together. The book is about how to set up a life together to cover yourself legally in the aspects you would be granted automatically if you were married and making choices about what type of paperwork / responsibilities you have together.
For example, in my state since we aren't married we have no medical rights regarding each other. He doesn't want to be my "pull the plug" guy (which he would be if we were married) so I had to fill out legal paperwork making someone else my "pull the plug" person and seperate paperwork filed with the local hospital so that he can see me in the case of emergency.
No, it isn't romantic and yes he will kick his heels. Some of the things in the book I hadn't even thought of - even when I was married - and led to some interesting discussions. I think we came out of that experience much better off (we bought a house together shortly afterwards).

[Seshat]

One of the things that I look for in a couple (or triad, or quad, or...) is whether or not they can make decisions together. So far, you and your BF can't.

Or at least, that's how I read your original post.

If you're going to make it as a couple, you HAVE to develop some way to make decisions together, and to come to agreements. I don't care what the method is: quiet calm discussions, screaming rows, tantrums followed by calm discussions, pillow talk last thing at night, staring at each other over coffee in the morning... whatever works for you.

But you MUST develop a method where each of you gets your piece said AND HEARD, and then the two of you come to an agreement that is acceptable to both.

Unfortunately, you have at least two dealbreakers in your list. Kids and location. Unless one of you changes your mind on those - and they're both things people feel strongly about - your lives will be incompatible.

I agree with you regarding kids, BTW. If you're not in it because you genuinely, truly, honestly want to do the shitwork of taking an infant and 18 years later turning out a healthy (barring disability) adult who is prepared to function in society; then you shouldn't be a parent.
(Opinion. But a strongly held opinion.)
Someone who's in it for the Kodak moments should be an honorary uncle/aunt of someone else's kids: they should not be a parent. And if they're going to be an honorary uncle/aunt, they need to at least learn responsible childminding info & do a first aid course.

My mother knew a woman who loved infants. She kept having kids; and once they were past the toddler stage, she practically neglected them. Stayed just this side of where child services could interfere.

Anyway. I think you're absolutely right to not be a parent if you don't want to be, and that you should stick to your guns on that point.

I also think you need to develop a way to discuss these issues with your BF. I recommend assertiveness training - there should be places to get it online.

(does a search)

Aha. Try these keywords in Google, find one or more that suit your personality:

assertiveness training online free

Also try google's video search with 'assertiveness training'.

[fireheart]

My mother knew a woman who loved infants. She kept having kids; and once they were past the toddler stage, she practically neglected them. Stayed just this side of where child services could interfere.

Not to derail the thread too much, but those "kodak" moments are also relevant for first day of school, first great art project coming home and so on.