Hair

[NightAngel]

Will-Mun:

Yep. Quite a few as a matter of fact. Generally, they'd be just "shocked" that a major corporation trying to present a certain "image" to the public would allow such a thing. I also think that the area you work in has a lot to do with it. I work in a county full of wealthy people.

Just so you know- I personally don't care if a man's hair is long if it's well kept during work hours. However, I also believe that a corporation has the right to set standards of how it's employees will look as well. And as Jester said: men and women are not the same and therefore are not going to have exactly the same rules.

I also think if those of you who think it's discrimination look it up you'll find it isn't.
Companies cannot discriminate based on gender, sexual preference, religion, color, over 40 years of age, disabilities, marital status or national origin.
I believe 'sexual orientation' and 'marital status' are dependant upon the state you live in.
I think you'll be hard pressed to find any law that says anything about hair length.

[tollbaby]

I also think if those of you who think it's discrimination look it up you'll find it isn't.
Companies cannot discriminate based on gender, sexual preference, religion, color, over 40 years of age, disabilities, marital status or national origin.
I believe 'sexual orientation' and 'marital status' are dependant upon the state you live in.
I think you'll be hard pressed to find any law that says anything about hair length.

Yeah, but if there's a rule about men's hair length and no rule for women, then that's discrimination based on sex.

As long as the person's (male or female) hair is reasonably kept, then I don't see why ANYONE should be forced to cut their hair for work. If it's a safety hazard, there are ways of getting it out of the way.

[MadMike]

Complaints about his hair? Who the hell actually complains about someone's hair?

People with no lives, and nothing better to do.

Unfortunately, some of these people with no lives run the companies, and you have to deal with it.

I kept my hair short when I was interviewing, and would have kept it that way had I not found out that there were guys with long hair at the job where I got hired, and that no one raised a fuss over it.

If I'd ever decide to look for a job somewhere else, I have to grudgingly accept that I would probably have to cut my hair again before going on interviews, and maybe even shave off the beard.

It sucks that these brainless corporate types, and some managers will actually judge people in something trivial as the length of their hair, but it still happens. Maybe in another generation or two, it will be more accepted, but for now, the control freaks are still in charge in a lot of places.

[NightAngel]

Yeah, but if there's a rule about men's hair length and no rule for women, then that's discrimination based on sex.

Actually, that law is more there so that companies can't say, for example, "A woman can't do construction," or, "A man can't be a nurse in the Maternity ward."
Basically, a company cannot say that you do not have the ability to do any job as well as the other gender does it and therefore not hire you for that job.

[tollbaby]

Yes, I realize that... but it still makes no sense that women would be allowed to have long hair, but not men. If a woman worked there and had an unfortunate testosterone imbalance, would you tell her she had to shave because women weren't allowed facial hair? (it's happened.... Once had a woman working in our office, and I swear you couldn't tell she was female. She had a better beard going than my husband did... nobody told her she had to shave though).

It just seems ridiculously petty. Most long-haired men I've met keep their hair much neater than I keep mine, and yet they may be told that if they want a job, they have to cut their hair??? I'd like to meet the person who'd tell ME that.

Ontario (where I lived most of my life) has a labor law on the books stating that you cannot refuse someone employment based on their appearance (i.e. only hire attractive, large-busted women like Hooter's does). The workplace can request that tattoos be covered and that piercings be removed for hygienic reasons (and for safety, where piercings are concerned). I don't even think they're allowed to say anything about your haircolor (and I've seen some pretty outlandish dye jobs, in high-level gov't offices).

[NightAngel]

As it goes at my current job:
Tattoos must be covered, visible piercings must be removed (you are allowed one stud in each ear lobe) and your hair has to be neatly groomed and a natural color. No green, pink or blue. No mohawks, etc. This goes for men and women.

We have no long haired males currently but I suspect that if we did they would, at the very least, be expected to keep it in a ponytail. Facial hair also has to be trimmed and neat- no scruffy beards. I've never worked with a bearded lady so I have zero idea what would happen there.

Like I said- PERSONALLY I have no problems with it as long as it's neat while on the clock.

Personally I also like my men with longer than average hair. My hubby just got his hair cut almost military short... I pouted. He has quit telling me before he gets haircuts for this reason:


I whine.




The simple fact is this- if you want their money you have to do what they require.
No one forces anyone to apply for or take a job. If you don't like what they require you have the option to move on.

If I owned a business I'd expect my employees to conform to my appearance standards. It is, after all, my business and my money. Of course, I always have the option to not hire you as well- there are always other qualified applicants.

[Jester]

As far as Jester's post, there's a difference between a man dressing in women's clothes and having long hair...

In your opinion, yes. But there are definitely people out there who disagree with you, and not all of them are transvestites, either. The point is, where do you draw the line? The bigger point is, if an employer has a right to dictate what you wear, and has different standards for men and women (as many employers do), then they also have the right to dictate how you are groomed as well.

As pointed out in this thread, it's not 1957 and most males aren't sporting whitewall haircuts like Wally and the Beav.

No. But then, most employers (not counting the military) are not requiring such haircuts, either. Short and conservative is not the same as Wally and the Beav, my friend.

I think it's a ridiculous double standard to require men to keep their hair a certain length but not women, especially when 99.999 times out of 100 it has no effect on job safety or performance.

I would imagine most of these "above the collar" requirements would fail to stand up in court since I can't see the employers making any case where it's essential to the job.

Life has double standards. As do many jobs.

And there are many requirements in many jobs that are not related to job safety or job performance and are not essential to the job in question. Ties in business situations. A particular shirt over other similar shirts. Grooming limitations regarding women's nails. Ditto men's beards. Ditto underwear. And on and on and on.

And I dare say that the courts WOULD uphold these things, as they do not unfairly discriminate against a particular gender, keeping them from some opportunity that the other gender is afforded.

Again, is all this fair? No. But then, neither is life.

Right or wrong- most people do not consider long hair on a man as professional appearance.

I don't know about that, but a LOT of people (and thus employers) do not consider long-haired men to look professional.

And yet some of the most professional people I have seen have long hair, and some of the most unprofessional LOOK very professional.

[Ringtail Z28]

The Target store I used to work at tried to require men to keep their hair no longer than two inches. That started after a senior citizens discout day when loads of complaints came in about our lack of professionalism and pride in our work because of our appearance. A load of bull really, the managers at the time were some of the least professional people there, but they dressed nice.

Reminds me of argument I once had with my aunt. She said something like, "Would you do business with a bank that had an employee with a mohawk?"
I said, "Hell yes. That must mean he's really good at his job and has nothing to hide. The biggest assholes I've ever seen hide behind suits and ties."

[JustADude]

"Hell yes. That must mean he's really good at his job and has nothing to hide. The biggest assholes I've ever seen hide behind suits and ties."

Seconded! There was an essay in one of my old college texts I've never been able to find since that was about how messy people are kind and generous while neat people are mean and stingy that I think fits here. Something about an anal-retentive need to have everything neat, orderly and controlled versus a desire not to discard things they find intriguing, beautiful, etc.

[Strange Magic]

This topic makes my blood boil to the point of not being able to write a very well thought out response.
To the managers and thier supporters that think that a mans hair length is a reflection of thier work ethic,habits or professionalism you should be ashamed of yourselfs for being so narrow minded. And you you be doubly ashamed of yourselves for not standing up to the complainers.
I will have to sit back and think of a more well thought out response though. It really does torque me off to no end and it makes me want to bring back some of my older and less than nice ways of behaving towards folks that are displaying wht I consider to be a total lack of intelligence....*No backsliding for me though*

I do have a recent story that will bring a smile to those folks who are of a more normal train of thought...

I work as a rep for a really large appliance company who only asks that I pull my hair back when I make training calls to client stores (Think large retail operations and big box stores with appliance depts)
Making a long story short-I went into a store last week and introduced myself to the manager who said he'd be happy to talk with me when I was making a official visit and looked "professional". I was in black dockers,black casual dressy shoes and a polo shirt with my company name on it. It turns out he was refering to my hair and I told him that I this is a official visit and that if he'd prefer that I can just skip coiming to his store to train his employees.
Well that went over like a lead balloon with this manager and he just said he'd call my company and get them to send another rep. I told him he was welcome to try but that before he would be off the phone I'd be personally talking with the other reps in the area and explain the situation to them...and that NONE of them would take over this store. There are 4 of us in the Houston area and we are a very close team. We watch each others backs no ifs,ands or but's...
He did call and the awnser he got after I called and explained as well was that he could deal with me...or not have a rep period. I do a good job and my bosses know it and they told him....My bosses here are some of the only ones I'd do ANYTHING for. They watch over thier team like nothing I've ever seen before.
anyhow...This manger is just going to be unavailable when I come in and do my trainings. The floor staff said he was so pissed that he could not shut up about it for 2 days, *Not to mention that they liked seeing someone put him in his place because they can't or are to scared to.

[NightAngel]

To the managers and thier supporters that think that a mans hair length is a reflection of thier work ethic,habits or professionalism you should be ashamed of yourselfs for being so narrow minded.

I don't think anyone here said that they believed anything of the sort.

As for "standing up" to the complainers we can only do as much as our job allows.
I can say to the customer: "So-and-so is a fine, knowledgeable and polite employee. If you have a customer service related issue I'll be happy to address it."
But I can't say: "You're an asshat for even bringing up the hair length of one of my fine, knowledgeable and polite employees."

[Rapscallion]

You make an odd allegation about the community here at CS.com, Strange Magic. If I'd seen anyone saying that long hair is a measure of unprofessional behaviour, I would have looked at the small fact that at least one of the administrators has long hair. I saw nothing to concern me in this way when I was reading.

I'll admit that I was skim-reading for the most part, though. Perhaps you could back up your statements with appropriate quotes?

Rapscallion

[MadMike]

I would have looked at the small fact that at least one of the administrators has long hair.

That would be me, of course. I've made several posts in this thread already.

The short version of my thoughts is, it's wrong to judge someone on something trivial like the length of their hair. The concern should be on how they do their job instead.

However, some people are still hung up on the idea of "professional appearances", and sometimes you do have to decide which is more important -- having long hair, or the ability to pay your bills. I don't agree with it by a longshot, but you have to pick your battles.

As Raps pointed out, I have long hair, and while I work in an office environment, I'm lucky that no one seems to mind. It wasn't always that way, though. We had this one tyrannical manager who, among other things, had it out for guys with long hair. Most of the other guys cut theirs, but I didn't. Nothing came of that, fortunately, but if got to the point where my job was at stake, I would have had to cut it. I wouldn't have been happy about it, but jobs like the one I have aren't easy to come by, and I have bills to pay.

[Strange Magic]

From my perspective I believe that citing "professional looks" and the like as a excuse for company's are fine examples of narrow mindedness and help perpetuate attitudes that should have been stamped out 40 or so years ago. And is a cause to be ashamed of one's self.
Standing up to the customers AND for employees can be as simple as the example cited. Maybe even going a little further and praising of said employee (if warranted by performance) That would let the customer know that they are going to get nowhere with such pettiness and it has the bonus of doing that without being overly rude.
I'm not referring to to Mike as I know he has long hair and I have been the victim of such things when I was younger. Having to pick and choose...But this would be my cause i have to admit. I see no difference between judging a man on his hair length and judging them based on skin color...I would not accept the argument of "Well you can cut your hair and a person can't change their skin color" because it's a basing of a (wrong) opinion on something tangible when what is the important part is not so tangible. The important part being character and such.
I have really tried to be open minded since a series of self examinations a few years ago revealed some inner character flaws that made a real opening and accepting nature a must for my mental well being (not to mention not being a #$%hole to those around me) But seeing things that side with the anti long hair train of thought just makes a red streak of lighting anger sweep thru me.
In the grand scheme of things it's prob a very small issue. But to me it's that important....
I hope that explains my thoughts better...

I really am a reasonable fellow and I hope it's reflected in this sort of reply.

[Rapscallion]

Hmm - I don't see any quotes where people cited these as excuses. People said these were the reasons claimed by companies, not that they were excusing them. Perhaps I missed something - could you show me some quotes of where someone said that companies were excused?

Rapscallion