Complaining about S&M.

[Hon'ya-chan]

The Gor novels are shit.

I hope this clarifies things for you.

Rapscallion

Shit as in Human Feces, or Horse Dung, or....?

[Rapscallion]

Wait, is that the same thing as the Barsoom Novels??

Most definitely not. The Barsoom novels are by Edgar Rice Burroughs (author of Tarzan) and are a fine example of classic science fiction. They are immensely readable to even young teens, and they don't dwell on the animal lusts involved in many modern novels, instead concentrating on the pure love that would drive a man to wade through gore ten times over to rescue his princess.

The Gor novels are shit.

I hope this clarifies things for you.

Rapscallion

[jayel]

There's absolutely nothing inappropriate about what they did unless you are intolerant of either homosexuals, S&M, or Goths in general.

Just a reminder: I did say I had no strong opinion about this one way or another. My issues are more with the whole acceptance/intolerance mentality.

And yes, you can disagree with or disapprove of a behavior without being (gulp!) intolerant of the person or persons doing it. I am a Christian and some of my best friends are gays/ atheists/ slept around lots, and my unmarried younger sister has a seven month old baby and I love her dearly and we treat the father like family. I do not judge or lecture these people because they make choices or believe differently than I do. That is their choice, and I appreciate and enjoy our relationships regardless. I know some Christians are very critical and appear to be full of hatred toward certain groups and activities. But not all of us. And I'm not saying this so people will think "Oh what a nice person! She's a Christian and she's still willing to associate with heathens!" Please. I don't think that way. I'm just citing typical things that people claim Christians are intolerant toward, for examples. I get tired of being lumped into the intolerant category, and wanted to state for the record that just disagreeing or disapproving does not necessarily make you intolerant.

[Hon'ya-chan]

My big problem is that the Gorean novels are,

Wait, is that the same thing as the Barsoom Novels??

[JustADude]

I would caution Gor's detractors to keep the phrase in mind, too. Their life choices are their thing. They're not hurting anyone, as ironically as the phrase may be used. The only place they go wrong is when they talk shit about folks-not-them. So long as they don't vent their spew at me, they're fine in my book.

My big problem is that the Gorean novels are, in their essence, based around the principles of Stockholm Syndrome combined with the twisted idea that society can tell better than the individual what that person needs and wants. They take people who have a weak sense of self, put them in a situation they're powerless to change, where they can't even control how they place their hands when they sit and they're told that they have no choice but to accept whatever is done to them, and force them to comply until they eventually give in completely.

The idea of glorifying that kind of systematic rape and brainwashing by aping it with a woman who gives her initial consent to the process gives me the screaming heebie-jeebies in a way I can't even begin to describe. Strict submission is one thing, but the ones I've met that claim to be Gorean-style took things to a point I was worried about the Subs' ability to function independantly if/when the relationship broke apart.

To all of you who are saying "You go girls!" and "It's no one else's business", would you say the same thing if you saw a straight couple making out on a chair in the store? Or even cuddling, maybe sitting in each other's lap? Or would you think it was innapropriate for a pulic setting and tell them to get a room? You probably don't want to know what goes on behind my closed bedroom doors, even though you'd see it as part of a healthy marriage relationship.

It seems to me there is a lot of pressure to be accepting of this sort of thing. God forbid you criticize anyone who acts differently than you do, that would make you intolerant. But you can approve of someone's actions without needing to see them. And you can admit that something is inappropriate for a particular circumstance without being critical. I'm just sayin'.

Firstly, I consider holding a leash to be the equivalent of holding hands... snuggling a little at worst... and that's all they were doing, sitting quietly and reading with one holding the other's leash. Just wanted to get that point out there. That being said, I'd think it was rather sweet, and a good sign for today's youth, to see a straight, vanilla couple sitting next to each other snuggled up in a book-store love seat reading. I might roll my eyes, but I'd be smiling while I did it, ala . I certainly wouldn't go bitch because a young couple wanted to sit close to each other while they perused Manga.

There's absolutely nothing inappropriate about what they did unless you are intolerant of either homosexuals, S&M, or Goths in general.

[GingerBiscuit]

Just waiting for the days siomeone tells us WE'RE not doing our kink right.

The boy will squash 'em.

I'm a bit more realxed about public displays of affection really, as long as no-ones hand is down anyones pants I won't care if someone is kissing, cuddling in public. Also I won't care if someones on a leash in public (I have been, in the past) or in a gimp mask, or like Lady Latex i n a latex burka.

Doma nd sub, is often not just about the sex, but about the life together as well, so if they want to display their affection in that way who am I to judge? I don't see it as similar to making out at al, just a public display of affection.
For a lot of people those aren't private parts of their sex life, they are necessary aspects of their relationship. Less like making out, more like holding hands.

[zzapp the witch]

I've got you all beat. I am SO freaky, I mean SO INSANELY FREAKY. Nobody can dress up weirder and more attention getting than this:









I don't wear socks that match. Or even coordinate with each other nor with anything else I'm wearing. Seriously, I get more weird looks and comments and treated like I'm "special", just from socks.

But really, I do love to wear my chainmaille in public. None of mine is functional in the traditional sense, mostly ornamental with a chance of defending against some minor slashing attacks. Oh yeah, and my maille-patched jeans. Those are the bomb-diggidy, yo. (Or whatever it is you whippersnappers are saying these days.)

Mysty, I once wore an old rough-woven polyester bell-bottomed body suit (the kind when you walk too fast you catch on fire) to school. It was white with neon green and bright yellow plaid. My aunt used to wear it when she went to the roller disco when she was a teen. I still think that outfit's pretty cool.

Kudoes to those girls. I'm trying to figure out a comfortable leash-type pattern for a gal I see at the Saturday Market....I'm almost thinking of getting the leather quilted with a cotton backing and then appliqueing the chain on top.....lol any suggestions from people who wear leashes more than I would be great.

[jayel]

I don't have a very strong opinion about this either way. If I had seen it, I would have probably gawked a moment and then ran to tell whoever I was with. I would not really have been offended. But I will say this: Some things are of an intimate nature and do not need to be displayed publicly. While this dom and sub-on-a-leash may have been acting on some very intimate parts of their relationship, so is my husband and I making love. But we don't do this in public, because it's an intimate expression of love between us that no one else needs to be privy to.

To all of you who are saying "You go girls!" and "It's no one else's business", would you say the same thing if you saw a straight couple making out on a chair in the store? Or even cuddling, maybe sitting in each other's lap? Or would you think it was innapropriate for a pulic setting and tell them to get a room? You probably don't want to know what goes on behind my closed bedroom doors, even though you'd see it as part of a healthy marriage relationship.

It seems to me there is a lot of pressure to be accepting of this sort of thing. God forbid you criticize anyone who acts differently than you do, that would make you intolerant. But you can approve of someone's actions without needing to see them. And you can admit that something is innapropriate for a particular circumstance without being critical. I'm just sayin'.

[MinimaMagistra]

*snort* Ah, the Goreans. Gotta love 'em. They are practically the "Write Your Own Stupid" part of BDSM.

In googling to allay my confusion from all the Gor stuff that was going over my head, I ran across two phrases: "YKINOK" and "YKIOK,IJNMK". If these are absolute common knowledge, forgive me. I just found them fascinating. The first stands for "Your Kink Is Not OK". It does not condemn another person's kink, as it might sound. Rather, it condemns those who condemn kink not their own. That sounds a lot like what I found out about Gor, beyond that it's a complete mindset for them, beyond an activity or even a lifestyle. I would caution Gor's detractors to keep the phrase in mind, too. Their life choices are their thing. They're not hurting anyone, as ironically as the phrase may be used. The only place they go wrong is when they talk shit about folks-not-them. So long as they don't vent their spew at me, they're fine in my book.

"YKIOK,IJNMK" is a much friendlier sentiment, though harder to type. Your Kink Is OK, It's Just Not My Kink. Acceptance and respect for all, without any need to conform. Like hippies in latex.

[BlackIronCrown]

Yeah, really. As I said, they were self-proclaimed regulators of the One True Way Of S&M, and had a very short list of people that would talk to them... those being the ones who agreed with their 'flavor' of practically Consensual-Gor (as in the novels) style S&M. Makes me f'ing sick, personally.

*snort* Ah, the Goreans. Gotta love 'em. They are practically the "Write Your Own Stupid" part of BDSM. I have not yet met one Gorean who's practices and/or mental state did not leave me going "Que?"

The pity is that the early books are not so bad - halfway decent Lin Carter or Burroughs pastiche material. Later on, it just got....yeah. How about no?

[JustADude]

I personally cant stand the ideals of Gor and such but that's just me. In my relationship there's equal playing field between dom and sub.

Exactly the my point. I came this >< close to doing a psych paper on exactly how many levels of fucked up Gor is when you try it in real life, but I ended up going more conservative and working on more typical forms of abusive relationships.

Rael turned her down, because it was basically just a "Who's popular now" invitee list.

Like everything isn't that way these days?

What ever happened to, to mangle a phrase, "the love of the game?"

[Imogene]

had a very short list of people that would talk to them... those being the ones who agreed with their 'flavor' of practically Consensual-Gor (as in the novels) style S&M.

A long time ago, back when I were new to the internets, I chatted with Rael the Bunny girl (after a particularly mean Photoshop event on Fark.com that brought Rael to my attention, and I defended her. We started talking and hit it off) And she told me she'd been invited to one of those 'Real Sex' bondage shows that HBO shows every so often, because the mistress who ran the thing liked her work. Rael turned her down, because it was basically just a "Who's popular now" invitee list.

[RecoveringKinkoid]

Call me crazy, but I don't remember reading that the sub and dom were angry at all about the woman complaining about them. They were just sitting there, and the woman took her problem to the cashier... not to the sub, nor, more importantly, the dom.

I worded that wrong, I guess. I am more responding to the people being indignant about "nosy people minding their own business" than I am to the reactions of the dom and the sub. I'm just using them as an example of how unusual looks or unusual behavior draws attention.

As for the leash thing, I put my child on one when the situation warrents it, such as a thick crowd or whatever. It makes us both feel secure. There was a thread on here earlier about that that was pretty much divided into two groups, from what I could tell: People against children on leashes, and parents.

I don't care to rehash it all, as its been done and I'm not inclined repeat myself here about it, but I'll leave you with this link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_James_Bulger

It's about a horrific murder, so if you are sensitive to stuff like this, as I am, please don't read it. My point in posting it is that Jame's Bulger's mother was not negligent. The way I understand it, she turned her head for the second or so it takes to sign a receipt. That is all it takes.

And a spanking would not have helped.

[Pezzle]

I personally cant stand the ideals of Gor and such but that's jhust me. In my rlationship there's euqal playing feild between domand sub.

Speaking of which i djust cot back from NYC with him. I l0oves my mast6er.

[JustADude]

What series is this? One series I love is Shadowrun novelas, which like the Shadowrun world, share lots of magic (I love) with Cyberpunk (My fave), so if there's other good series out there, I wanna read them!!.

Yep, It's Terry Pratchett's Discworld novels, as Juwl said. They're actually high-fantasy with a dry, satirical twist. Trust me, you'll love him.

Please forgive me the analogy, I know it's probably all wrong in several levels but it's the only way I can think of right now trying to explain this... you mean these purists, if they have a pet (let's say a dog) they'd preffer for the dog to jump on them and maul them when they return home, rathen than for the dog to fetch them their slippers? odd.....

Juwl got this one as well. yeah, they were saying that the 'dog' should wait by the door and wait for the mistress to TELL IT to go fetch the slippers. Not a bad analogy, actually, since I've always identified with the Wolf... and we all know what a tamed wolf is.

But no matter where you go, no matter what you do, no matter the day, age, social circles or culture, Sucky People will be there!

(Seriously, something like this is probably the last place someone should be coming up to you and saying 'You're doing it wrong!')

Yeah, really. As I said, they were self-proclaimed regulators of the One True Way Of S&M, and had a very short list of people that would talk to them... those being the ones who agreed with their 'flavor' of practically Consensual-Gor (as in the novels) style S&M. Makes me f'ing sick, personally.

When they started getting snotty like that they got pretty much got to see me go from kneeling at her feet with my head in her lap to standing up and glaring in about .3 seconds, since they also started going in on my Mistress for "being a bad Top". I can shrug off just about anything directed at myself, unless you manage to find one of my well-hidden buttons, but go after someone I care about in front of me, even just a friend, and you see exactly how close to a 'dog' I am... in the "giant snarling attack-dog" sense.