What do you mean I shouldn't get paid?

[RetailWorkhorse]

DUH you should get paid! It's work! If ya don't get paid, you can't eat and ya can't show up at work.

This thread reminded me of a letter to the editor some local tool wrote. Basically he was rippin' on doctors and nurses saying they should give their services away for free. His reasoning (if you can call it that) was some crap about the nobility of being a healer and the fact that health care should be free because unlike other services it was a needful thing.

......I'm a basic healer (because I really dislike hospitals ) and I fully expect to be paid (in munchies if not cash) when I help someone.

And just because I'm a healer it doesn't mean I don't have a problem with hurting people. I need direction to that guy's dorm/house/bicycle and a trout stuffed with lead.

[Evil Queen]

Now see if you were a Dungeons & Dragons Cleric, you could have smacked him with your +2 Mace.

And buried him with the +2 Shovel of the Dead.

[Leopardmadcat]

Last I heard the Vatican's assets where valued at 4 BILLION Pounds!, and that's only what they have admitted to in Europe alone. That's enough money that if all donations suddenly dried up the Church would still keep going - unphased - FOREVER. Just on interest alone, not counting investments.

So when churches start crying over falling donations please forgive me if the only tears I shed are out of FRUSTRATION!

The Pope is always going on and on about how we need to give to the poor and show mercy... They just evicted hundreds of tenants from low-income buildings in Rome so they could build yet more hotels. They already own a quarter of all buildings in Rome alone!

Religion... the largest investment scam on Earth.

[Rapscallion]

I thought I could smell a thread descending into Fratching...

Desist, please.

Rapscallion

[Leopardmadcat]

Who? Me? But I love a good argument! And lets face it, nothing makes for great arguments like religion and politics.

Anyhow, I'm not saying he shouldn't be paid. That's like INSANE. I'm just saying don't expect ME to pay for his tuition (through taxes). The Church is just like any other big corporation. They exist to provide services to their clientel, and they collect fees (in the form of donations) to pay for same.

hinakiba777 is a member of (whichever) church and is training to provide expert services to clients of same. This is specialist field with limited employers, and even more limited specialist practitioners.

So my question boils down to: why isn't the church paying for his training, the same way most corporations pay for specialist employee training?

[Gurndigarn]

Last I heard the Vatican's assets where valued at 4 BILLION Pounds!, and that's only what they have admitted to in Europe alone. That's enough money that if all donations suddenly dried up the Church would still keep going - unphased - FOREVER. Just on interest alone, not counting investments.

I'm going to skip the "investment scam" part of the message, which really belongs on Fratching... but you're missing an important part here. The assets you're mentioning here are, I suspect, mostly real estate and other tangible property, not stocks, bonds, or other financial-type investments. If I'm correct in that assumption, than the only "interest" they produce is donations. If those dried up, than upkeep (or lack thereof) would begin to "erode the principle", so to speak.

So my question boils down to: why isn't the church paying for his training, the same way most corporations pay for specialist employee training?

Most corporations looking for specialist training look to hire college grads. What's so different here?

[South Texan]

So my question boils down to: why isn't the church paying for his training, the same way most corporations pay for specialist employee training?

Because most theologies do not pre-select who is going to be in their respective clergies before the person goes to school, and because those studying to earn degrees that may allow them to enter the clergy are just as entitled to financial aid as those who are studying to earn secular degrees for personal, non-governmental purposes.

That is all I am going to say about it.

I thought this was a fun topic, Hinakiba777. Thanks for posting it!

[PepperElf]

Yeah he actually quoted the Bible.

i guess he forgot that in other parts of the bible, people joined the disciples and actually donated all of their money to that community. it's in Acts, but i forgot which verse and chapter.

in a way he wasn't exactly wrong in his ideas... in the olden days there was no paycheck for the religious figures... but they could also depend on common hospitality for food and lodging. so i guess if he wants to enforce his beliefs he should therefore open his house and home to them yes?

(how much do you want to bet he'd suddenly claim it was someone else's task...)

but in reality, just to serve a church it costs money. just the building itself has requirements. ... electricity, air conditioning, heating, lighting, water. (and some of those like heating may be legally required). plus the clergy need food, and in some faiths they may have to support families too.

it's just too silly and unthinking to expect someone to work at a career for free.

Plus... as mentioned was the college loans. yeah it's not free to get there... most churches require college education and that's not free either.

[flybye023]

I can understand why someone would be against clergy being paid. My mom had a co-worker who was part of a congregation that was very close-knit and had a pastor who was very loving and willing to serve. Well, he retired and his replacement made it very clear that he was only in it for the money.

He demanded a raise and high vacation pay right off the bat. He also forbid people with children from attending and was very demeaning to the poorer people. He moved into an area of his congregation that was more well-to-do and very far from where the less affluent members lived so it was harder for them to attend.

So, there can be abuses. However, what I don't understand is, if you don't believe in a paid clergy why do you stay? Why not just find a religion that doesn't have one and stop criticizing the good pastors who do earn the money they are given. As we have seen from these posts there are several out there.

[PepperElf]

He also forbid people with children from attending and was very demeaning to the poorer people.

That's bound to endear him to the congregation! :eyeroll:

but that does remind me of one of my favorite pastors. every sunday he thanked parents for brining their kids, cos he liked their noise. (and that if people were bothered, well they were suppose to be paying attention to the service and not worrying about noisy kids anyway)

[PepperElf]

He also forbid people with children from attending and was very demeaning to the poorer people.

That's bound to endear him to the congregation! :eyeroll:

but that does remind me of one of my favorite pastors. every sunday he thanked parents for brining their kids, cos he liked their noise. (and that if people were bothered, well they were suppose to be paying attention to the service and not worrying about noisy kids anyway)

[Gurndigarn]

in a way he wasn't exactly wrong in his ideas... in the olden days there was no paycheck for the religious figures.

No paycheck per se, but there was sometimes various other forms of support, depending on what the position was and how much time it sucked down.

However, what I don't understand is, if you don't believe in a paid clergy why do you stay? Why not just find a religion that doesn't have one and stop criticizing the good pastors who do earn the money they are given.

Because all the ones with non-paid clergy I'm familiar with expect members to volunteer time to help the place run. Heaven help him, that would mean that he would be expected to work for his church at times. He has enough trouble just giving them money. Time would be just too much.

[Broomjockey]

Who? Me? But I love a good argument! And lets face it, nothing makes for great arguments like religion and politics.

And arguments and debates are for FRATCHING. NOT CS.

Let's get this back on track and keep it to just the guy in the OP. Or else this thread will be closed.

[BookstoreEscapee]

So, you're supposed to be on call 24/7 and hold down a full-time job? I'm sure the boss of that job would really go for that...

[hinakiba777]

So, you're supposed to be on call 24/7 and hold down a full-time job? I'm sure the boss of that job would really go for that...

Oh I know. I can't even get most employers to hire me when i'm a full time student. And I only have two hours of classes in the morning most days. I don't think they will let me be "on call".

Okay there are too many thinks to quote so I'm just going to answer everyone in a few bullet points.

- Please don't make this a religious debate. I know I am a MiT, but the doctor argument applies also. There are a lot of people who think "noble" professions shouldn't be paid. That's what I'm angry about, if you get OT, then it's fratching. Which I don't want.

-As for the education thing. It's kind of like being a professor. Once I start working i get study grants and sabbaticals. I am given funds and time to further my studies, but I have to get through grad school on my own.

-Just for the record. I'm a girl.

There's nothing else I want to respond to that isn't OT.