still fuming about this three weeks later

[Clover]

I know what you mean about hoarding-I'm not a hoarder (I can't stand being cluttered, I'm a bit claustrophobic and I need a lot of room to work with my crafts and such anyway) but I used to live next door to an elderly woman who was, because she lived in a very hard time when she had no way of knowing whether or not she'd have anything within the next few days or so, so hoarding food and things to sell for food money became a survival instinct for her, that continued until she was finally put in a nursing home. Her daughter has been finding totally unbelievable things stashed away in the back room of that house, and it's taking forever to clean out (even with my mom and I helping her), but she was not by any means a slob. It was a matter of life and death for her and her family, and that kind of instinct is really hard to push aside, even in safer times.

That guy had no right to say those things, and I wouldn't have bothered being polite telling him to get lost.

[smileyeagle1021]

Ive wondered what caused people to be like that. The explanation that Smiley gave is a good one (im certain not the only). Hoarders I mean, there is never a reason for SCs.
Thanks Smiley, I always wondered a bit about hoarders.

As others have mentioned further down, if you talk to ten hoarders you'll probably get ten different reasons, but there does tend to be a common theme of the fear of getting rid of something that will later be needed or a seemingly irrational attachment to possessions.

I take exception to the episodes where the occupant is hoarding animals, though. That just breaks my heart.

I know I'm a bit of a hypocrite for this, but that is one form of hoarding I don't understand and don't want to. It's one thing having a big heart and bringing in more animals than you can handle, but finding out they are sick and it is more than you can handle and still saying "no, they are mine, you can't take them, I love them"... well, clearly you don't otherwise you'd be willing to let them be adopted by someone who is capable of taking care of their sickness.

Hoarding also varies hugely. Some people hoard specific things, some hoard things incredibly neatly, others have other problems with messiness, and some people who have problems with squalor and not hoarding get lumped in due to the TV programs. (I have problems with both hoarding and squalor). People with squalor issues often don't notice the mess in the same way

Victoria J

Hoarding and squalor do often go hand in hand, hoarding can often lead to squalor, a few most common reasons are that when it comes to things like trash, it is easier to just hoard it than to go through the thought process of determining what is trash, also, once you've started hoarding milk jugs and soda bottles, then it is easier to not notice the candy bar wrappers. Also, some of the squalor is because even if you wanted to clean you can't, you hate having dirty dishes, but you can't get to the sink or dishwasher, so you let them pile up, you want to clean the toilet and shower but can no longer get to where you store your cleaning supplies, etc.
So, yes, they are two different disorders/situations, but they often do go hand in hand and can be caused by each other.

"Hoarders" actually helped motivate me to get rid of a whole bunch of old crap I don't use or need. After watching that show, I cleaned a massive amount of junk out of my closet (things that had been piling up for over 4 years) and I'm better for it. Haven't missed a single thing.

Same here, that show is a nice dose of shock therapy to get me to go through my closets and bookshelves and drawers to find stuff to give away or sell or throw away.

WHAT an Anusburger! D<

I am stealing that

eta- I just realized I have a MS Word window still open from Tuesday that I know I have saved but am afraid to close because I don't want to lose it because I know I need it for this weekend, I guess some habits do die hard

[depechemodefan]

SmileyEagle, I thought it would be something like you key asswipes's cars or something. I'm glad you are getting better.

I read abook called Dirty Secret about a woman who has a mother who is a hoarder. One thing about the mom was she lived with an abusive father and a wimpy mother. One time she called child protective services, hoping she would get into a better home, but cps told her a foster home would be worse for her. thing was, her father would abuse her mom and she would get involved, trying to get him to stop then she get abused. Her parents then left all their money and property to her siblings (the ones who never got involved with the abuse), so maybe it steemed from being left with nothing.

I was watching Animal Cops at the hospital in my mom's room and the nurse comes in. When he sees what I'm watching he gets all huffy, and says, "no one can tell me what I can do with my animals." Well, yes, someone can tell you what to do with your animals if you are an asswipe and treat them inhumanely.

[Andara Bledin]

I know I'm a bit of a hypocrite for this, but that is one form of hoarding I don't understand and don't want to.

These types have a lot more wrong with them than just the hoarding. They don't really understand that the animals are sick or hurting. Their heads are so messed up that they just can't comprehend that what they are doing is actually hurting them. It's sad and heartbreaking and there's often nothing that can be done to help them, though you can rescue the animals.

I was watching Animal Cops at the hospital in my mom's room and the nurse comes in. When he sees what I'm watching he gets all huffy, and says, "no one can tell me what I can do with my animals."

I would make a special request that that nurse never be allowed near me or anyone I care about.

I don't care how good you are at your job, if you are a big enough asshole that you would be a candidate for having your pet show up on Animal Cops, you've got serious empathy issues and I don't want you anywhere near me or mine.

^-.-^

[Ironclad Alibi]

I am a recovering pack rat. I used to save just about everything because it may be useful later. About 25 years ago the book Clutter's Last Stand came out and I got a copy. It changed my life.

The main effect the book had on me was in regard to my office at work. The philosophy in the book allowed me to get rid of a lot of paper I had been keeping. I came to realize it would be quicker to rewrite something in that pile of paper than it would be find it. And the pile of paper was just notes I had made, not the official file records. I had a much more pleasent office to work in afterwards.

At home has been another story. I have several hobbies, which means lots of books, models, games, computer games, computer parts, puzzles, etc. have accumulated over the years, and are still accumulating. Since space has become a premium, every now and then I go through my various hobby collections and get rid of a bunch of it. The same with tools and related supplies.

Now I have ended up tossing something that I needed later for some repair or project and I had to buy another one. But for every one of those, there are many, many more I have never missed.

[ShadowBall]

Unfortunately giving my mother stuff may not work because she has a tendency of throwing her shit into my room. Then when I move it back to her room or to the basement, she has a bitch fit.

Like how I got a new desk and put my old one in the basement. Well I guess it was too good for the basement, so now, at my mother's insistence, it's in the kitchen and thus providing my mother another surface upon which even more shit can be stacked.

There is no hope for my mother because, like most narcissists, she feels she is right about everything, including hoarding shit like a starving mouse in the winter.

[EricKei]

I am not familiar with the different "levels" here, but my father definitely fell under one of them, and I have inherited it, somewhat, tho I am gradually "getting rid" ~_~ Could someone please point me to such a list so that I may express my hallucinatory opinion regarding where I belong on it? ^_^;> I am fairly certain that I DO belong on there somewhere...

He was a history buff, so he had half a dozen bookshelves full of historical books -- most of which he had actually read at some point -- scattered thru the house, but his main issue was old clothing that no longer fit and various bits of furniture. It never got to the point of "I can't WALK thru here" except in a spare/storage room where I tended to just throw stuff he wouldn't let me toss, but it was getting there. After he passed, a friend/roomie and I spent time tossing out the blatantly useless stuff (clothes), going thru books for sellable ones (less than 1/4 of them), etc etc. We ended up filiing up the entire curb space in front of the house -- about 1 1/2 car lengths -- TWICE to a height of 4 feet or so. Dad had been in this house since the mid-80's, but still...

The storage/spare room was emptied completely and is now home to my (smaller) computer parts ....collection...., ya know, bits I may need someday >_> And a bunch of empty boxes which do get actively used whenever I do a mini-purge. I'm doing my best to keep it manageable, tho, and I am making progress.

I would like to move one of these years, and I wanna get down to the point of "I am taking whatever will fit in a small U-haul truck and the rest stays here for goodwill or whoever wants to haul it away". I have found that I tend to expand to clutter the space available, but I'm improving. Slowly. I think a smaller place would be a really, really good idea, for many reasons. When we moved here, it was three people in half of a duplex. Now, it's me and the furry quadrupeds. The only major reason I have yet to move is that getting an apartment the size of my current back room would likely cost me MORE in rent that what I'm paying now for half of a two-storey home...I've been here forever and a day, I don't ask for non-critical repairs, and I don't piss off the neighbors, so that has kept rent on my side down for years.

Shadow - maybe use that as ammo against keeping the stuff. Give her your crap, again, if need be. Tell her that, if she puts it into YOUR room again, you will have to assume that she doesn't want/need it either, so out it goes into the garbage.

[Seshat]

Squalor Survivors is an excellent resource for hoarding and squalor information.

Their 'Measuring Squalor' page has links to scales of squalor/hoarding.

[Andara Bledin]

THIS is the Hoarding Scale I used. (pdf)

Going through it basing it on how our apartment was (the scale is obviously based on a space larger than a 1-bedroom flat). It's interesting to note how much it mentions filth that we never had. Although, having active mousers will keep the rodent population from visiting. Unfortunately, the ant incursions were the biggest issue, and we couldn't stop those, only triage when they happened then close up whatever chink they'd found to invade through that time. The entire building really needs to be fumigated.

In the first section, access/structure, we're totally at the first level. For the next section, pet/vermin, we were at less than first level on vermin, but at first to second for the cats. For the next, room functions, we're mostly at first with some second (narrowed paths due to excess clutter, but nothing stored in such a way to make any part of a room unusable). Finally, the last section, sanitation/cleanliness, is our worst. We're both rather indifferent housekeepers, and the apartment was never meant to be our home, so we didn't really take care of things like we should have. Though, for the most part, the issues were pet-related with excess dust and dander, and a general lack of vacuuming/dusting.

Our last place was actually worse, but that was due in no small part to my ex (he's not a hoarder, but his housekeeping was much worse than mine has ever been) and my brother who would blame all messes on other people and not do a damn thing to pick up after himself. >_<

Needless to say, now that we're in a house that we own and the place we intend to make our home for the foreseeable future, more effort is going to be made to keep things tidy. Plus, the fact that most of the building is tiled will make dander collection and disposal much easier. And, having a garage to store the clutter in instead of an apartment that's only a bit over half the size we need will make a huge difference, too. But, it's still going to be a constant fight against keeping crap we really don't need stacked all over the place.

^-.-^

[Seshat]

Hm.

Structural: level 1, or if you count the fact that we can't afford wood for the wood heater, and can't afford a new oven/stovetop, level 3.
Oh, and we have visible clutter outdoors.

Pets & Rodents: Level 1, possibly 2 depending on how much 'pet dander' counts as 'pet dander', and how long since we last vacuumed.

Household functions: Level 1. But I feel like its worse.

Sanitation and Cleanliness: Some level 2, some level 3.

[EricKei]

By Seshat's Link: Category 1. Have these people seen my house? It's eerily accurate.

By the PDF:

Structural: level 1, nothing even close to being blocked; When Dad was around, a couple of rooms were Level 2. The "computer storage" room approaches 2 at times, but it's better thanks to my last purge, and has never been to the point of "Carpet? DUDE! There's carpet in here!" since the roomie and I went to town on it

Pets & Rodents: Level 1, hinting towards 2 because I know that there has to be SOME aroma from 2 dogs and 2 cats, I just can't smell it anymore unless I've not been home for a few days. The occasional roach or ant in the summer, especially, you can't get away from them here. Fleas are honestly a bigger issue during the summertime -- I "bomb" several rooms in early summer and as needed; two cans will take care of the entire house and the pet bedding -- but I am NEVER without at least 2 cans of (carpet) flea, roach, ant, and long-distance wasp spray. Oh, the joys of living in an area that Mother Nature really would like to revert to swampland ~_~

Household functions: Level 1.

Sanitation and Cleanliness: Low-end 2. Pet dander/need a better vacuum (tho I have a rubber "pet hair broom" that does nicely for as long as my back can tolerate it). Kitchen counters tend to be cluttered with items (boxes, bags, pans) but not actual food or debris (usually). Mold likely exists in the house somewhere (After Katrina, they sent around free inspectors; ours was judged "not enough to warrant mold remediation assistance". Thanks a LOT. Nothing visible or smellable afaik) and the AC in-wall vents have NEVER been cleaned since I lived here (tho the intake filter is replaced regularly).

[tropicsgoddess]

What an asshole. Those remarks were WAY out of line! Though I do have to say that as much as I LOATHE cleaning (especially the bathroom), I get in the mood to clean like mad after watching Hoarders (some of the hoarders houses are horrendous...only one I saw that wasn't so horrendous was one that was more of the shopaholic variety).

[smileyeagle1021]

Okay, so according to Andara's scale my mom's house was a three and a half (and my current is a high one).
The people on Hoarders don't define it as well, they just say one is minimal interference with home function and five is completely unusable.

[Seshat]

SC: Oh good, cleanliness is next to godliness after all, people who are too lazy to stay clean are worthless, they should just kill themselves and save us the effort of cleaning up after them.

I think it hurts to hear anyone say 'people who are X should just kill themselves' or 'should just die' or whatever.

Being disabled myself, both physically and mentally ...

Well. Yeah. hurts. A lot.

[Dreamstalker]

TV shows like Hoarders don't make any effort explaining why the people hoard, just sensationalizing it to amuse their target audience and get ad revenue.

There are two hoarding shows, we think the one on A&E (Hoarders) does at least make an effort to explain the "why" and show the therapy process. The other one is conflict more than anything else (but what do you expect from TLC really?).

I imagine they did it because they went through the Depression. I've noted that it tends to be more common with people who either grew up or went through a period of extreme poverty.

My grandmother hoarded crap, and used the "Great Depression excuse" (yes, she did spin it into an excuse which didn't even make sense). We're talking about so many plastic and cardboard food containers in the oven that mom was constantly worried about something catching fire. Moldy food that grandma would try to serve because "it's fine". When we finally sold the house it took us three days straight and a couple contractor-dumpster loads to clear the attic. Interestingly, the downstairs living area was always kept fairly neat; it was where people couldn't see that was the problem (that allowed a "caretaker" to abscond with a few thousand dollars worth of antiques that mom KNEW was in the attic yet we weren't able to retrieve them).

She was a hoarder, yet she saw nothing wrong with getting rid of my toys by shipping them to her relatives in the middle of nowhere <_< (that could be why I started developing minor hoarding tendencies when I finally got all my stuff out of there)