Domestic Violence...long, kinda graphic.

[Dilorenzo]

Fool that I am, I came back to this thread. But I felt that I left something important out of my last post here, and I had to fix that.

Amina, even by trying to do the right thing, you're doing more than most would do. Sure, some people might be tired of trying after trying so long, but so many more wouldn't even want to "bother" getting involved. So don't think the "you may not be able to help her" speeches mean that you're not a better person for trying to help.

[protege]

Draggar is right, the cops have most likely been called to that house before, probably several times. They keep going back and seeing the same damn thing with the same damn cast of characters. Now factor in that they see it every night, all over town, a hundred times.

They're human. They get sick of it and wonder why they should even bother. Not only that, but now factor in that a domestic is the worst sort of call to get sent on in terms of danger to the cop and you really can understand their seemingly callous attitude towards abuse victims.

Exactly. Even though it's their job, they soon get tired of dealing with the same things. How do I know this? I once lived next door to a constant domestic violence situation. These assholes (I've posted about Chuck and Diane before) were drunk 24/7 (or so it seemed) and were constantly screaming at each other. They'd beat each other up, as well as the children. Many nights, especially during the summer...because they'd have their windows open, the cops would show up.

It usually started like this--the kids would get home in the afternoon, followed by the wife an hour or so later. One of the kids would do or say the wrong thing. Tension would build...until the husband got home around 6. Screaming and the daily breaking of dishes would start...and would sometimes last all night. I can't actually remember why CPS never took the kids away. Why the school never called CPS, since the bruises on the kids were constant, I'll never know

Anyway, imagine having to deal with that shit nearly *every* fucking night over the course of several years. They managed to piss off the entire block with their drunken antics. By then, most of us were simply tuning them out, and the cops were no longer called.

They finally moved out, after the husband (who was drunk out of his mind) was attempting to repair his garage door one night. He was up on a ladder, lost his balance, and was pinned when the door fell on him Nobody came to his aid--his wife found him the next morning--simply because we all thought "Chuck and Diane are fighting again." Diane actually went around to some of the other neighbors and was upset with them because nobody came to her husband's aid. She went off on my mother because we were home, and did nothing. Mom's reaction? "Shut the fuck up, Diane. Maybe if you wouldn't fight all the damn time the entire block wouldn't ignore you." That was apparently the last straw--they moved out, and some sanity was restored to the neighborhood.

What I'm trying to say is, that eventually people get burnt out over things like this. You reach a point that you're simply unwilling to deal with someone else's drama...especially if you have offered help, and the situation keeps repeating itself. It's unfortunate, but in some cases, there's only so much you can do.

[Seshat]

@Seshat, I'd call that adjusting to a new relationship dynamic. I did a lot of the same emotional crap when Rugz and I first got married, then I realised how much I was acting like my mother and made the concious decision to change. You mentioned that you've changed for the better. You and I both know that abusers don't really change and when they do, they get worse.

Thanks, Mishi. That does make me feel better. Even then, even when things were at their worst, I was trying to change, and trying to get professional help.

(We won't mention the long history of misdiagnoses and inappropriate treatments.)

Okay. Threadjack over. Mishi's just defined the difference in a way that satisfies me - hopefully anyone else who needs that defined, too.


Back on topic:
Noone is trying to dissuade you (Amina) from helping. We're just trying to give you realistic expectations - and safety warnings.

[taxguykarl]

Noone is trying to dissuade you (Amina) from helping. We're just trying to give you realistic expectations - and safety warnings.

Exactly. It can take years for your friend in the OP to realize that she can do better in a mate...or one event will bring her around.

[Amina516]

Back on topic:
Noone is trying to dissuade you (Amina) from helping. We're just trying to give you realistic expectations - and safety warnings.

I know. And I DO appreciate it.


Mike, I remember reading Jester's story about Tiny Dancer. I had forgotten it, but its a perfect example of what im talking about. Maybe if I could get her to read it.........

[Victory Sabre]

I know. And I DO appreciate it.


Mike, I remember reading Jester's story about Tiny Dancer. I had forgotten it, but its a perfect example of what im talking about. Maybe if I could get her to read it.........

http://www.customerssuck.com/board/s...ht=Tiny+Dancer
Here's his thread.

Other members have given you great advice, and I really have nothing else to offer. You're doing a good job to help your CW, but, it's up to her to decide to get out. All you can do is be there for her if she wants it.

[Kanalah]

I think it's all been said really well by everyone. It's wonderful that you're there to help her, but this is something that she's going to have to take the first steps on her own. Also you don't want to get caught in the crossfire, if/when it happens.

I grew up with abusive parents. My father would yell and hit. My mother did emotional abuse. She still does actually. Dad's kinda grown up/anger managment. Anyway, long story short, basically I got told nearly every day while I was growing up that I was worthless, stupid and ugly. They'd blame every little thing that went wrong on me. I was told that I ruined thier lives and that things would be better if I was gone/ran away/killed myself.

I thought it was all my fault for being such a 'bad' kid. I went to school with bruises and black eyes and no one ever called me into the office to talk about it, so I figured it was normal and I should just deal with it. I was suicidal for a long long time. I used to bust my butt doing good in school and doing all the housework at home to show my parents that I was a good kid and maybe they'd love me. I never told my friends about what was happening at home because I didn't want to look like a wuss.

I did have some friends offer me a place to stay and I never took them up on it because I believed that the abuse was my fault. The last straw happened when my fiancee moved to my state and saw firsthand what was really going on. He was teaching me to stand up for myself and that really pissed off my family. My mom got mad one day and kicked me out.

At the time I thought it was the worst thing to ever happen to me. I was shunned by my family. Now I feel that it was one of the best things to happen to me. I was forced to purge a lot of my belongings, nipping my hoarding tendances in the bud. I also got to get married early and move in with hubby, who is an awesome and paitent man. He's done a lot to help me be more assertive and vocal.

So hugs to everyone who's ever had to go through any kind of abuse. I know I wasn't planning on leaving my abusers, and I was lucky that things happened the way that they did.

[Eisa]

-hugs Kanalah and everyone-

Hadn't thought of that, but for that matter, I need to get away from my parents still. Completely. I've already noticed the more contact I have with them, the more I fall back into bad behavior patterns and bad thought patterns.

Also--just because he doesn't hit you doesn't mean he isn't hurting you [or she for that matter]. My ex only gave me bruises...once, maybe? When he grabbed my wrist too hard? [I bruise easy, too, which didn't help.] But because of the other stuff he did, I will have pain erm down there for the rest of my life and it hurts sometimes just to SIT. Don't let it get that far...



I also think that if you can get your CW to read the Tiny Dancer thread, it might be a wake-up call for her. Or might sink her further into denial, like "oh that wouldn't happen to me." But--one can only hope...

[Seshat]

Hadn't thought of that, but for that matter, I need to get away from my parents still. Completely. I've already noticed the more contact I have with them, the more I fall back into bad behavior patterns and bad thought patterns.

A surprising amount of my emotional problems just *poof* cleared up when I stopped keeping in contact with my parents and brother.

It's very sad, and it hurts me frequently to have to do that. They mean well, they just have no clue what they're doing to me. (Or so I believe. My spouses aren't so sure.)

And yes, that paragraph just made me sound like a victim/survivor of abuse. I know. That's why I continue to restrict contact. Every time we DO make contact, I have several days of old behaviour and thought patterns.

The part that worries/hurts me most is my nephew. My niece is their personality type. My nephew takes after me. She'll probably be fine... I hope...

[Amina516]

***UPDATE***

Saturday: So, i kept missing this girl at work. I fially saw her Saturday evening and was able to talk to her a little bit. She told me that she hadnt seen her abuser (lets just call him DB [douchebag]) since he last attacked her which is the one i told you all about. I just told her to still be careful and once again offered my assistance if needed.

Sunday: i come back in Sunday evening and shes here again. Once of the first thing she says to me is "Well, whats done is done" I asked her what she meant and she told me the story.

Apparently DB went into the apt again Sunday Morning (he had a key, IDK why she didnt change the damn locks). My CW, Cat had by this time gotten another cell phone (thank God) and used it to call her grandparents just as he was walking in the door. She later told me she just couldnt bring herself to call the cops on him....-.- but anywho, her grandparents called the cops for her. The DB, knowing that she had made a phonecall decided to not stay long...but picked up a belt and decided to whoop the hell out of her left arm. In the throes of his rage, he managed to hit this own daughter who is like 6 months old and watching her dad beat the crap out of her mom. So, DB leaves and the cops show up, but NOW apparently things can get done.

Since he hasnt "lived" there since she attempted another PFA, he can now be charged with breaking and entering (he couldnt before b/c it was his primary residence). He will be charged with reckless endangerment, since he hit his daughter as well as simple assault x2 on Cat herself. The cops estimate itll take 3-4 days to get him (IDK WHERE they got this time frame from, considering they havent caught him yet and its been over a week since the first incident) and he also will not qualify for bail for some reason or another. So, its good and bad. I really hope she changes the damn locks but in the meantime, she'll be staying with her grandparents until he's caught.

im glad theres finally some progress. However her FB status this eveing pissed me off (and i quote): The physical bruises will heal over time but I can't say the same for the bruises on my heart. It sucks when you have to let go of someone you love so much! I'm not finding the good in goodbye.

Really? How can you still call this love?! I know this is diffcult for her, but I really hope shes able to keep him out of her life.

[RootedPhoenix]

It's possible she still loves him. He doesn't have to love her. He can be a complete psychopath. Sometimes you love your abuser, despite what they do to you and despite what they are. I know I loved mine (ex-boyfriend). I still do, but I cannot let him into my life ever again.

I'm glad she's getting some help. I hope she never goes back to him.

And, *hugs everyone in the thread* Abuse isn't easy to deal with. Be nice to yourself when you're healing.

I still have to remember that not everyone is an abusive dingbat. But there are good people out there.

[taxguykarl]

However her FB status this eveing pissed me off (and i quote): The physical bruises will heal over time but I can't say the same for the bruises on my heart. It sucks when you have to let go of someone you love so much! I'm not finding the good in goodbye.

Really? How can you still call this love?! I know this is diffcult for her, but I really hope shes able to keep him out of her life.

Read up on Stockholm syndrome...a lot will be explained. Having dealt with an abusive ex-GF myself, I can safely tell you that it is a big mistake to project logic onto this situation. The devil you know...

[Kara]

As I said before, I loved my abuser. I loved her with all my heart. My love blinded me to what was going on. You know how she got me to do most of the housework, tend to the children most of the time, and do whatever other tasks she may require, keeping me so busy that I was literally only getting about 3 hours of sleep a night? She would threaten to leave me. That's all it took. My brain was saying, "ah, that line again. She's full of it, she's not going to leave." And my heart would say, "But what if she means it this time?"

It's not logical. It's not right. It probably isn't sane. But that's how it is. In fact, if you didn't love your abuser, you probably wouldn't be abused, and you certainly would have left after the first time. You take it, you accept it, you justify it because of your love for your abuser. Especially if it didn't start out as an abusive relationship, if you were already head over heels in love with someone before the abuse started. That's where you start to get the sense that if you can be "good," do things "right," and love the abuser enough, you can go back to the way things were before. That is your reward for getting through it, for suffering from abuse. It will get better, it wasn't always like this, that's what you tell yourself. As soon as you've been good long enough and tried hard enough, the abuser will be satisfied and won't have to hurt you anymore. And you can go back to the way things were. Any day now.

What's that? The kids woke her up while you were cleaning the kitchen? If you had been paying attention to them and being a responsible parent, that wouldn't have happened. Why can't you do one simple fucking thing? All she was asking for was to take a nap, you know how hard she works. Why do you have to be so fucking worthless? You fucking idiot.

I'm sorry angel! I was working in the kitchen. It won't happen again. I'll do better, I promise. Looks like you're going to have to wait a little longer for things to go back to "happy," cause you fucked it all up. Again.

That's what it feels like. You have this "happy family" image in your head, this perfect picture of your relationship. And it overrides all reason, because that's how bad you want it.

[Jester]

Fuck. Fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck and MOTHERFUCKER!

God, I hate this shit. I actually found myself skipping over some posts because my mind was just glazing over with this FUCKING SHIT.

As many of you know, this is something that cuts really close to me. For anyone who's squeamish, skip to the next post...I don't fuck around, and I don't mince words, especially with this fucking bullshit.

As a couple people have pointed out, I have dealt with this crap. A few years ago, my friend of many years ended up in the morgue because of this crap. The thread is right here, but the short version goes something like this:

Tiny Dancer shows up at work beaten all to shit by Big Boy.
Coworkers, including myself, go out of our way to help Tiny Dancer.
Tiny Dancer accepts proffered help as she tries to distance herself from Big Boy.
Tiny Dancer goes back to Big Boy.
Shortly thereafter, Tiny Dancer ends up dead. She was found hung in the house she shared with Big Boy.
Now, most of her friends, including myself, believe that Big Boy killed her and staged the suicide. However, the coroner ruled it a suicide.
But whether she did it to herself, or he did it to her, the end result is the same, and to most of her friends, the person responsible is still Big Boy: either he killed her or he drove her to kill herself.

Feel free to show your coworker that thread. Give her some nice reading material. Let her know that THIS IS HER FUCKING FUTURE. (You might want to leave out my comments here, as they are going to be less than gentle.)

Everything I tried to get her to understand and take action, she had an excuse for.

They always do.

This is why so many people, including the cops, are eventually going to just turn a blind eye to her. Because they get sick of hearing about it, knowing fully well that she has the ability to get out of it, that she has been offered countless times ways to get out of it, and she has turned her back on those offers every time.

And by the way, even if she somehow manages to escape the clutches of this jackass scumbag, I've got good money that says that her next boyfriend is going to be right out of the same douchebag asshole mold.

Victims stay victims. It's what they know. It's sad, it's pathetic, it's enough to make you cry rivers of tears and rip your fucking heart to shreds, but it's also the sad brutal truth.

Now, ill admit, IDK how the legal system works.....but how can no one care about this?!

That's just the thing, darlin'. People DO care. They care until their soul bleeds out completely, and then they decide they don't care anymore. Because the victim lets the abuser back in. Because the victim refuses offered help. Because the victim refuses to press charges. Because the victim continues to be the victim, to allow herself to be victimized despite all the people who care trying to help her. After a while, it becomes too much to bear, so people stop caring out of self-preservation. And I'll be honest....I can't blame them.

And I certainly can't blame the cops. After all, they deal with this shit on a more regular basis than we do. And the vast majority of cops I've known would love nothing more than to lock the sick abusive fuck up and let the victim get back to a semblance of a normal life, but they are thwarted in their efforts to help and to do their job by the very person they are trying to help. So, when they get called to the same fucking house 3, 5, a dozen times for the same reason, yeah, they get annoyed, they get sick of it, and they get callous. And having seen a couple of these situations up close and personal, I can't really blame them. It sucks balls trying to help someone who goes out of their way to NOT help themselves.

Yes, I know that the victim's reality is different from ours. I am not blaming the victim here. I am merely pointing out the difficulty people (including cops) have trying to continuously help someone who to them doesn't seem to want to help themselves. It would be like hearing someone say they haven't eaten in days, and you offer them a burger, only for them to tell you they don't really like red meat. Or some such. You get the idea.

I was the only one who addressed the issue with her, everyone else at work just ignored it because (and i quote) "I dont feel bad for her b/c she always has drama." Really?!

Yes. Really. She always has drama. You have pointed that out yourself, though you may not realize it. Your other coworkers are sick of this shit from this woman, and I can't blame them. I can feel for her, but I can also understand where they are coming from. After a while, you just get sick of the never-ending drama.

NO ONE deserves to be treated or beat like that...ever.

And if she's not going to make an effort to get out of that situation...what then?

She wont let me help her and short of kidnapping her, IDK what to do.

To be blunt, there is not a damn thing you CAN do. Whether we're talking about addictions or domestic violence or any number of other things, it is absolutely true that you cannot help someone who doesn't want to be helped.

You care, and that's great. A lot of us do. But you have to understand that you need to be ready to have your heart broken on this one. Because the vast majority of abuse victims return to their abusers. A very large number of them die, especially when the abuse is as violent as you describe it. Whether by her own hand or his, chances are good that this coworker of yours won't be around for long. I'm sorry to be so blunt about it, but that is the harsh truth, as I myself learned 3 years ago. You need to understand that the odds are against you, because this woman has stacked the odds against herself, as abuse victims often do.

I don't blame them. But the fact remains you can't help them if they won't accept your help. Strap yourself in for a bumpy ride, dear....this probably won't end pretty.

in Florida, if the police gets dispatched for domestic violence someone IS going to jail.

Not necessarily true. It doesn't happen all the time, or every time. I know, because I've SEEN it not happen, on multiple occasions with various people. So, perhaps in your part of Florida that is the way it works, but not throughout the state, my friend.

I have thrown crockery and kitchenware around. I have (once) hit my partner. I have certainly yelled and screamed and run away and threatened suicide plenty of times.

.... I guess that despite the same surface actions, I'm not actually an abuser. Am I?

If someone on this board described your actions as being that of their SO, what would most of this board say?

They would probably pillory the person as an abuser, and advise the poster to get the fuck away from that person, as quickly as possible.

Look, the fact is that there is a difference between emotional outbursts and continued abuse. I don't know where that line is or should be drawn. I do know that the douchebag in the original post was clearing an abusive asshole. Are you abusive? It is not for me to say.

I will say that, despite what some have said here, some abusers DO change. MOST do not. But some, who do not realize that they are being abusive, as they were themselves abused, go about changing their lives once they realize what they are doing. The percentage of these folks is very, very low, but they do exist. Of course, a victim holding out hope that their tormentor will be one of these few is pretty unrealistic and unlikely to see fruition.

So, are you actually an abuser? I don't know. You might be. You might have just had some emotional outbursts. You may be on the borderline between the two. But you recognize you have an issue, and you are making attempts to address it. That is a positive, and one you need to focus on.

Look, I know it's probably not polite to say this. I know several other posters have already say, "Oh, no, you're not abusive." And maybe they are right. I don't know. But because you are part of this family of CS.com, of course people here are going to see the positive in you, and rally to your side. Just as the families of abusers do for them, often saying that the victim is exaggerating or has been abusive themselves or whatever. In the end, just as only victims can help themselves, only you can determine if you've been abusive, and if so, what you need to do to get away from that sort of mindset. Whatever happens, I wish you the best of luck, and remind you that you can always talk to me privately if you feel the need. I may be a bit of an asshole, but I won't pull any punches. (Clearly.)

I don't recall what happened next -- there was a bunch of yelling, I vaguely remember her coming at me, and the next thing I knew, I had my hands on her neck. I certainly don't condone that, and I'm not that kind of person, but I guess when someone keeps pushing you like she did all those years, you end up snapping.

I have often commented on the oft-stated philosophy that "it's never okay to hit a woman." And while I generally agree with that, I disagree in cases of self-defense. For myself, I have said that if a woman came at me with, say, a frying pan, knife, gun, or some other weapon, I would drop her. My self-preservation is far more important to me than my dignity. I am not taking a knife to the throat just because I tried to be "honorable." In my opinion, if a woman comes at a man to do violence, he is within his rights to defend himself. Obviously, there are some serious physical mismatches in some relationships, but in my case, since I myself am not a huge guy, that would rarely be the case.
Now, I don't know your whole situation, so I can't and won't judge it; I'll leave it to you to determine whether what you did was right or wrong. In the end, though, it does sound like you handled the larger situation correctly, at least to me.

Apparently DB went into the apt again Sunday Morning (he had a key, IDK why she didnt change the damn locks).

The same reason she never followed up to press charges against him, and why victims so often take their abusers back. It all boils down to the victim not really seeing what the abuser is doing as being wrong or undeserved. For her to change the locks would be an admission to herself that what he was doing to her was undeserved, and clearly she has not gotten to that place yet.

Since he hasnt "lived" there since she attempted another PFA, he can now be charged with breaking and entering (he couldnt before b/c it was his primary residence). He will be charged with reckless endangerment, since he hit his daughter as well as simple assault x2 on Cat herself.

Sadly, in the end, it probably won't matter. Because he will either be out on bail, or out awaiting trial, or out after a short (or even long) sentence, and she will let him snake his way back into her life. Or, alternatively, she will find a new loser to be the personal punching bag for. I hope I'm wrong, but if I had to bet on the outcome, I'd bet large sums of money against her living happily ever after. This is a cyclical pattern, and it will repeat, over and over and over, until everyone around it is sick of it, and she ends up dead or resigned to being kicked around for the rest of her life, and becomes a walking shell of a person, a breathing zombie if you will.

Really? How can you still call this love?! I know this is diffcult for her, but I really hope shes able to keep him out of her life.

Because, this is what she KNOWS. This is her REALITY. Logic, reason, and rational thought have nothing to do with it. And the fact remains that, largely due to this mindset, the one person that can change her situation the most is also the one person least likely to act to do so: herself.

Welcome to the fun-filled world of domestic violence and abuse. Buckle up, strap on your helmet, and prepare your barfbag, because it's one ugly fucking place.

[Eisa]

-basically agrees with Jester-



I feel pathetic for saying this. But I know with my ex--if I had not had to leave Texas to go back to school, I don't know what would have happened. I do know that despite all that, it still took...another 3 months to actually break up with him. And that a lot of that was from him ignoring me and not calling me or giving a shit, not what he did while we were together. No, I kept blaming THAT on me. Which wasn't helped by my so-called friend telling me it's not rape if you want sex eventually. WTF?

I know my friends forbid me to see him over Thanksgiving break--and he assisted with that, being a douche. I remember that conversation and how I could actually SEE that time how he was being a manipulative asshole, saying he'd commit suicide if I left, blah blah blah. I've looked him up on Twitter a few times since then. Oh look, he's still alive.

But [like I think I said--can't remember], I'd already subconsciously decided if I had to go anywhere near him again, I was either going to kill myself or provoke him into killing me. I couldn't take it anymore. If that makes me weak and pathetic, then so be it, I guess.




Amina--HOPEFULLY the fact that he hurt her child will be the wake-up call she needs. Hopefully the fact that he returned and hurt her that badly will be enough. That's what I'm hoping for. I have a sinking feeling, however...