SC posts complaint about me online

[manybellsdown]

That's not liberated. It's cheap. It's hypocritical. But it's not liberated.

My ex-fiance was liberated. She was a woman with her own opinions and views on life, and could and did do anything for herself that she wanted, never letting something silly like her being a woman get in the way of it. She also had no problem with me holding doors for her, or getting her chair....but she often picked up the check, or we split it. Why? Because if a woman is liberated, she believes in gender EQUALITY, not in using her liberation to her advantage when it works for her or her wallet.

Exactly. I would never object to the common courtesy of having a door held, but I always hated letting a guy pick up the check. Dutch, or we can take turns, but I'm a big girl with a job and income, so he's not paying every time. A guy once dumped me after I picked up the check at lunch. True story. He said it "freaked him out."

I read somewhere once that refusing to let a man pay for your dinner automatically means you are rejecting them as a potential partner. Every time. Which of course is nonsense - the first date with my husband I told him "dutch or we take turns" and we've been married 6 years this week.

[Ironclad Alibi]

That's not liberated. It's cheap. It's hypocritical. But it's not liberated.

Well, she was cheap, and hypocritical. She was also liberated from having a relationship with me.

[thedrunkenmonkey]

The OP clearly isn't at fault here. Being female in a realm dominated by men usually results in someone deciding the female is the ONE TWOO WUV and is using her FEMININE WILES upon them.

The male who decides this has most likely never seen a feminine wile in the flesh, or simply has no social capacity at all - which, sadly, I have to agree with the poster who said that the Comic Book Store Nerd stereotype is ringing true.

But on the other side of the aisle...

I ain't no gentleman. Gentleman, to me, means someone who's willing to place the female in the feted role and be rewarded for his hunter-gatherer prowess in a transactional state. Meaning if I open the door, pay for dinner, act like the 1950s stereotype of the cleancut all-American boy, theoretically, I expect she'll come out of the bedroom wearing a black thong and a peekaboo corset a la Dita Von Teese.

Eh? Eh.... eh. Not to say Dita Von Teese wouldn't look great in that, but the likelihood a woman's going to suddenly reward me for being A Good Boy by marching out in slinky lingerie is pretty low. Unless it's my lovely bride, and I did something awesome for her. And even then, let's be honest, it's probably going to just be a pair of form-fitting yoga pants and a tank top. (My standards appear to have declined somewhat, I know.)

I found out that if I didn't have expectations, and rather said, "I invited you out, I'll pay for it," and was completely upfront about the concept, it wasn't an issue, and the rest was just common courtesy. Open the door first, let the girl sit down first, etc. If I played The Gentleman I was dropping myself squarely into Nice Guy Mode - which is, to most women, about as attractive as Comic Book Nerd Stalker.

When Mrs. Monkey and I first dated, I was flat-ass broke and unemployed, so I cooked a lot for her. When she asked me to go out for dinner I basically said I couldn't afford it, so she got the meal and I would get the tip. It worked out for us.

That said, ten years previously, I met a woman at a fairly nice place for dinner on our third date with some hard-to-find tickets for a theater show I wanted to see. She'd been there for about an hour working up a good bar tab to the tune of about $60, which she had added to our table bill.

Did I mention she was condescendingly rude to the waitstaff and busboys? Yeah. So anyway, she orders the most expensive thing on the menu, two more humungous drinks, and then says, "I don't really think of you in that way, so I think we should just be friends."

Me: "Oh. Well, okay, then."
Bill comes, and waiter sets it on her side of the table. She "accidentally" nudges it to my side and looks away, then says, "And if you don't want the tickets a friend of mine really would like to see the show..."

Rather than split her lip with a margarita glass to the face, I do the gentlemanly thing and excuse myself to the bathroom, run the numbers of her $110 bar and food tab to my $4 Dos Equis and $10 combination plate, think hard, then shrug and thank the waiter and the busboy who are holding the emergency exit WIDE OPEN so I can ditch her with the check.

Like I said. I'm not much of a gentleman.

[Jester]

Drunken Monkey, being a gentleman doesn't mean you have to be a spineless doormat. While I certainly would not have thrown a margarita glass at her head, I too would not have paid for her ridiculous bill or given her the tickets. As a fan of justified vengeance and poetic justice, I applaud what you did. That woman was a world class bitch, and didn't make much effort of hiding her attempted manipulations of you.

And folks, the saying that goes for men goes for women as well....the way they treat wait staff is a good indication of what kind of person they really are. Of course, having BEEN waitstaff for the last 25 years, I've had an up close and personal view of such behavior.

[XCashier]

When Mrs. Monkey and I first dated, I was flat-ass broke and unemployed, so I cooked a lot for her. When she asked me to go out for dinner I basically said I couldn't afford it, so she got the meal and I would get the tip. It worked out for us.

Mrs. Monkey sounds wonderful. Classy, sympathetic, kind. You've got a good one there. Congratulations.

That said, ten years previously, I met a woman at a fairly nice place for dinner on our third date with some hard-to-find tickets for a theater show I wanted to see. ...So anyway, she orders the most expensive thing on the menu, two more humungous drinks, and then says, "I don't really think of you in that way, so I think we should just be friends."

Me: "Oh. Well, okay, then."
Bill comes, and waiter sets it on her side of the table. She "accidentally" nudges it to my side and looks away, then says, "And if you don't want the tickets a friend of mine really would like to see the show..."

Manipulative much? Good job ditching that bitch. She deserves precisely what she got: a humongous tab and no show.

I hate people who do that. And they always know how to say it so they look soooo sweet and lovely and you look like a cad for disagreeing with her. Screw that sideways with a barrel cactus.

[Geek King]

I ain't no gentleman. Gentleman, to me, means someone who's willing to place the female in the feted role and be rewarded for his hunter-gatherer prowess in a transactional state. Meaning if I open the door, pay for dinner, act like the 1950s stereotype of the cleancut all-American boy, theoretically, I expect she'll come out of the bedroom wearing a black thong and a peekaboo corset a la Dita Von Teese.

Entirely not true, at least to my view of things. A true gentleman treats a lady as she deserves (and your dinner-mate deserved exactly what you gave her), and deals with other men with class and panache. Holding a door is perfectly alright, so long as you do it out of courtesy for whoever is following you, or going the opposite way. Also, a true gentleman expects no reward for his ways, except the pleasure it gives him...not that he would need to turn down Mrs. Von Teese and her corset, if offered, unless he determines Dita to be overly vulnerable (drunk, drugged, ect.). A true gentleman also doesn't take advantage of others, you see.

I may have watched too many Saturday afternoon westerns as a kid, though.

[Evandril]

Entirely not true, at least to my view of things. A true gentleman treats a lady as she deserves (and your dinner-mate deserved exactly what you gave her), and deals with other men with class and panache. Holding a door is perfectly alright, so long as you do it out of courtesy for whoever is following you, or going the opposite way. Also, a true gentleman expects no reward for his ways, except the pleasure it gives him...not that he would need to turn down Mrs. Von Teese and her corset, if offered, unless he determines Dita to be overly vulnerable (drunk, drugged, ect.). A true gentleman also doesn't take advantage of others, you see.

I may have watched too many Saturday afternoon westerns as a kid, though.

I'd agree with all of the above. The only 'reward' I expect for doing something nice is the self-satisfaction that in implicit within the act...anything else is a bonus. Acting like a gentleman can come with the expectation of rewards...*being* one does not, IMO. That is my personal definition, of course, YMMV

As far as figuring out who pays for what, I tend to use the 'rule' of whoever asked the other out has first chance to pay. If I ask someone to lunch/dinner/ect, they are going to have to be sneakier/faster than me to pay the check On the other hand, if they've invited me, I'll give them a chance to grab the check, and will offer...but will let them pay for it, if they choose. (My parents would often send me after the waiter with the money, to make sure they'd get the check...so I've got LOTS of practice in paying if I feel the need )

[Redbeard]

So Goddess, any updates on the love struck twit?

[EricKei]

I must agree with GK on this one - being a "gentleman" or not should be about how considerate you are to others, how well you comport yourself in public, etc. You can behave yourself as a gent no matter where you came from or how much or how little you make, and I would say that -- in this day and age -- someone who uses such a notion to belittle others is abusing the term, at the very least. In other words, he ain't no gentleman ^_^