Doctor Who Discussion [Spoiler Zone!]

[Jester]

Easily one of the best, and most emotional pieces that Ian Gold has written for the new series.

Unless I missed something major, I'm pretty sure you mean Murray Gold. Ian Gold is a retired NFL football player.

[KhirasHY]

My thoughts:

1) I want the music from Clara's threat scene just after the opening credits. Easily one of the best, and most emotional pieces that Ian Gold has written for the new series.

2) Back after episode 2 or 3 of this season, my roommate and I were talking about DW, and I mentioned how they always enjoyed bringing back old enemies as the nemesis. I specifically mentioned that Missy was due back in the next couple years. Damn I'm good.

3) Cybermen...well, hopefully they use them well. With luck they will be more like Gaimen's cybermen (see Nightmare in Silver) than the crappy Cybermen of past seasons.

4) Seeing the kid in the ipad at the end, does he know that something is wrong? I assume he will stop Danny from pressing the button...do the dead know what's happening in some way?

[gremcint]

here's the thing about the painting theory, I thought the 3d paintings were still just paintings, not the actual events, kind of like a pocket dimension, so it's not the actual galifrey but just a picture they hid in. I may be totally wrong.

I know at the end what they do with the planet but that was a case of converting the planet using that many tardises to shrink the planet and shove it in a pocket dimension using the painting thing as an inspiration. I don't know what to think now that I look at it, they need to explain it better.

[Kheldarson]

Another question from the episode...

The Doctor felt Missy's heartbeat...wouldn't he have immediately noticed that she had TWO hearts, and was therefore Gallifreyan and a Time Lady? It seems like that's something the Doctor would notice...

It should be, which is why Missy reemphasized the point when she revealed herself.

But...the Doctor has thought of himself as the last of his race for centuries. The last time he physically encountered his race, he sealed them all away. And she presented herself as being a robot, initially. It's a bit reasonable to think that he ignored the evidence since it was nigh impossible to be true.

[mjr]

It's more a separation between intellect and emotion. The Cybermen are all about reason and logic, viewing emotions as something that holds yo back from perfection. Beyond that, that's more existential than I want to get right now.

Another question from the episode...

The Doctor felt Missy's heartbeat...wouldn't he have immediately noticed that she had TWO hearts, and was therefore Gallifreyan and a Time Lady? It seems like that's something the Doctor would notice...

[Soulstealer]

I enjoyed this episode if only for giving evidence to so many Master/Doctor fanfictions over the years. And she did a great job capturing the madness I think of that the Master is supposed to have.

[Jester]

At first I thought this was going to be a lame rehash of when Rose attempted to go back and save her father. And then, amazingly, Moffat (who did write this one) turned the whole thing on its head and gave us what we saw. Personally, I think it was one of the strongest episodes of this season, though of course it did not have its flaws.

As for the Cybermen, I knew they'd be involved the moment The Doctor, Clara, and Dr. Chang first walked through those doors, because the Cyberman "eye" was the window of the door. And let's face it, subtlety has not really been a strong suit for Moffat. Still, if I, Mr. Oblivious, get something that quickly, you need to up your game.

Still, all in all, this episode was strong. Can't wait for the next one.

But who knows how long Missy has been at this plot. That's what she probably meant by "dead outnumber the living".

Regardless of how long she has been at this, it's a simply fact of history that, on Earth, those who have lived and died vastly outnumber those who are alive and still living.

[KatherineB]

You're welcome! It's definitely my favourite Baker story!

[Kheldarson]

I'm not really up on classic Who, so thanks for the info I'll see if I can find that story though!

[KatherineB]

It's also possible that Time Lord tech allows her to catch the last moment of consciousness.

The Matrix existed on Gallifrey to do exactly that. We saw in The Deadly Assassin (Fourth Doctor) how people's knowledge would be extracted. This is a transcript from the scene where the audience learns about it first:

SPANDRELL [Castellan of the Chancellery Guard on Gallifrey]: What is the Master like on mathematics?
DOCTOR: He's brilliant, absolutely brilliant. He's almost up to my standard. What's that?
ENGIN [works in the Gallifreyan archives]: The APC control.
DOCTOR: APC?
ENGIN: Amplified Panatropic Computations.
DOCTOR: Brain cells.
ENGIN: Yes. Trillions of electrochemical cells in a continuous matrix. The cells are the repository of departed Time Lords. At the moment of death, an electrical scan is made of the brain pattern and these millions of impulses are immediately transferred to the...
DOCTOR: Shush. I understand the theory. What's the function?
ENGIN: Well, to monitor life in the Capitol. We use all this combined knowledge and experience to predict future developments.

The Doctor is then sent into the Matrix, which, IMHO, is some of Tom Baker's best acting. If you haven't seen that series, I highly recommend it as we see Gallifrey, the Time Lords, and a brilliant storyline.

The Matrix appears again in Trial of a Time Lord and a variety of other stories in different forms (comics, prose, audio) so it's a well-used concept.

[Kheldarson]

But wouldn't the same thing apply? I mean, if the soul exists and the personality is deleted, is it the personality or the soul that's tied to the body?

It's more a separation between intellect and emotion. The Cybermen are all about reason and logic, viewing emotions as something that holds yo back from perfection. Beyond that, that's more existential than I want to get right now.

So they're sort of a cross between Data and the Borg?

More like the Borg were based on them. Borg appeared in 1989. Cybermen have been around since 1966. And to get it out if the way, the Cylons first appeared in 1978.

[mjr]

I imagine it's part of how they convince the souls to delete their personalities and join the Cybermen willingly.

But wouldn't the same thing apply? I mean, if the soul exists and the personality is deleted, is it the personality or the soul that's tied to the body?

Because Cybermen are androids. They're humans who have "improved" themselves by cutting away emotions and replacing a majority of themselves with metal. You have to have a body and a consciousness to become a Cyberman.

So they're sort of a cross between Data and the Borg?

[Kheldarson]

Ok, my wife and I are a bit confused about a few things about the episode last night. If someone could help us out (either here or through PM) that would be great...

1. What's the deal with them "feeling" temperature? I don't know who he was, but the guy told Danny that his body could feel temperature changes in the "Nethersphere" even though he was dead. Therefore, if he were on a table at a morgue, he would feel cold (which he did). So it follows that if he were to be cremated, he would feel that burning as intense pain.

Well, what you went on to explain is the point. You feel what your body is feeling, therefore you can be made to suffer even after death. I imagine it's part of how they convince the souls to delete their personalities and join the Cybermen willingly.

2. Missy said something about "saving" the consciousness (or something like that) and "upgrading" the body. Why would she need to save the consciousness?

Because Cybermen are androids. They're humans who have "improved" themselves by cutting away emotions and replacing a majority of themselves with metal. You have to have a body and a consciousness to become a Cyberman.

3. I'm not entirely sure why Missy would align with the Cybermen. I don't know enough about the series, I suppose, to see why this would make sense.

The Master is usually out to conquer and rule planets. If he/she is in control of the hive mind, then the Cybermen become the perfect enforcement of her rule.

4. Were the Cybermen going out to collect the already dead, or to kill more people? Missy made some sort of statement that "the dead outnumber the living".

Probably more the latter. Remember that you need a consciousness to work the Cyber body. But who knows how long Missy has been at this plot. That's what she probably meant by "dead outnumber the living".

5. How could Missy take over the afterlife? Unless the dead aren't really dead...

That's a possibility. It's also possible that Time Lord tech allows her to catch the last moment of consciousness. Don't know.

[mjr]

Ok, my wife and I are a bit confused about a few things about the episode last night. If someone could help us out (either here or through PM) that would be great...

1. What's the deal with them "feeling" temperature? I don't know who he was, but the guy told Danny that his body could feel temperature changes in the "Nethersphere" even though he was dead. Therefore, if he were on a table at a morgue, he would feel cold (which he did). So it follows that if he were to be cremated, he would feel that burning as intense pain.

2. Missy said something about "saving" the consciousness (or something like that) and "upgrading" the body. Why would she need to save the consciousness?

3. I'm not entirely sure why Missy would align with the Cybermen. I don't know enough about the series, I suppose, to see why this would make sense.

4. Were the Cybermen going out to collect the already dead, or to kill more people? Missy made some sort of statement that "the dead outnumber the living".

5. How could Missy take over the afterlife? Unless the dead aren't really dead...

[KabeRinnaul]

Also. How'd the hell the Master get out of the time lock?

We found this out later, but for anyone else who's wondering:

Go rewatch "Day of the Doctor", the anniversary special.

You should do this because it was wonderful, but also because it answers this question.

After the three Doctors and Clara exit the stasis cube painting in the vault, a woman's hand grabs the frame from the inside. It doesn't belong to Rose/the Moment/Bad Wolf, and Clara is too far away. Someone else followed them out.