Doctor Who Discussion [Spoiler Zone!]

[Jester]

I have been very harshly critical of this season, and I believe with good reason. But I'll say it here without reservation: the latest episode was really, really good. A damn shame we had to be this far into the season for a truly brilliant Doctor Who-esque episode, but I'll give the show props...this one kicked it. Hard. Sure, one could find some minor quibbles, but you could do that with almost any episode from any season with any Doctor. This episode, this story, this plot, this writing, this acting, these effects....this lived up to what we expect from Doctor Who.

About damn time!

[Kheldarson]

So last night's episode was pretty decent. I thought the monster was rather brilliant, the effects were fascinating, and when we were focused on the adventure, it was fun!

Just too bad it kept reminding me of better plot points (Doctor Donna) and had to bring in Clara's relationship drama; although yay for calling her out on her lying!

Both curious and disappointed with the Missy reference. Do we really need another creepy woman in black manipulating our female lead?

[KatherineB]

Actually, I felt you could skip all of the conversations just between Clara and the Doctor and you wouldn't miss much. Fast-forward through those and stop as soon as the Doctor is around other people.

[Gizmo]

Moirae? the last episode won't help with that feeling about Clara..... its worth watching because as a story - whilst its not up to Dr Who standard for me - its a decent story idea.

[Moirae]

I'm having a hard time dealing with the fact that the doctor almost seems like a secondary character. Just a way for clara to get into problems and she can't figure out how to get out of them. Previous companions seem to at least have some kind of idea how to do things by this point of being the doctors companion. She just doesn't. Yet she's the focus of almost all these stories.

I've disappointed in this season.

My husband and I have been recording the episodes to watch later. To be honest, it's Wednesday and we still haven't watched last weekends episode. We will probably watch at some point but I'm really tired of the focus on Clara and all her whining.

[KatherineB]

Hey! Them's fighting words!

*lol* This far away, I think I'm safe.

His face was supposed to be a plot point - why the Peter Capaldi model has twice appeared in the Whoniverse was apparently meant to be a thing. Now, being that this is Moffatt, and his "big twists" tend to fall flat (still a bit disappointed in the Silence, frankly), I'm not entirely optimistic, but I think they keep the show worth watching, even when the writing goes completely south in the name of pursuing some bit of ethical trivia.

"Mummy on the Orient Express," with the Doctor's act of potential self-sacrifice, did advance the morality plot a bit, rather than just hanging a limp episode on it. [...]

I don't want to tell Moffatt how to do his job, but it might be more interesting if the Doctor were trying to solve a puzzle that the audience had already solved. Then he wouldn't so much need redemption as convincing.

Ben, I really like the points you make here and I agree with you. I am particularly concerned how they will address the issue of Capaldi's former role(s) and I almost wish they would just get on with it. I have to wonder why it's taking so long to address - apart from the fact that, as far as Moff is concerned, the only episodes or references he is willing to acknowledge from S1-4 are his own episodes. He almost seems to be hoping that, if he doesn't reference the rest, we'll forget them.

And I would have loved the Doctor's self-sacrifice more if he hadn't pulled a very similar stunt in Time Heist, risking losing his mind to the Teller. It felt a bit recycled to me: having the Doctor facing a grave danger, digging up references to his past which he chokes out - and then snapping out of it at the very last second. I am at least grateful to see the Doctor being the one to save the day again, which we seemed to lose during a lot of Eleven's era, but I wish we could find at least semi-original ways for him to do it.

[Ben_Who]

Why I'm Sticking With It

I thought of putting this on my blog.

One of the big problems with this year's crop of Doctor Who episodes is that they all center on morality. They're obsessed with whether or not going for Twelve was a good idea. The first episode makes it unclear whether the Doctor kicked a living android out of a balloon, in the second he asks if he's a good man in the middle of a huge conflict over what makes someone "good" or "bad," and so on.

Now, morality stories are just as valuable in the abstract as other kinds of stories - technical stories (some piece of engineering is failing/going critical/going on a rampage) and political stories (oh, look, the Daleks/Cybermen/Armpit Creatures of Segelius Three are invading again) just as examples. Doctor Who has never shied away from what it means to be "moral." Plus, the Venn Diagram has some overlap - "The Curse of Peladon," just as a top-of-the-head example, covered a political struggle and a moral crisis caused by a technological leap. So the idea of an entire season about whether or not the Doctor is "a good man" isn't, in isolation, a criticism concern.

The trouble is, of which "Kill the Moon" is a magnificent example, that anything the story has to handle outside the morality theme, it does really, really badly. Whatever "Kill the Moon" has to say about morality disintegrates the second you ask a question about physics. Or politics. Or engineering. Or biology or chemistry or literally anything else crucial to the story.

The only episodes that haven't suffered in some way are ones in which the morality play isn't as central. "Time Heist" is both morally focused and technically intriguing. So is "Listen." But "Robot of Sherwood" expects us to believe in that final arrow-flight because we're all too busy paying attention to Locksley and the Doctor bickering. "The Caretaker" spends so much time hyping the friction between Danny Pink and the Doctor that the actual threat looks more like a B-plot. It's too soon to decide what to make of "Mummy on the Orient Express."

To be fair, I'm still having a good time watching these shows. It's only on second viewings or with a bit of thought that the stories fall apart. There's no reason not to tune in the following week, same Doc-time, same Doc-channel. But part of me is hoping for a payoff for this morality question that's been impoverishing the season.

There are a lot of little gestures going unremarked, as well. All right, there's the Promised Land. But what's with the writing? There has been Gallifreyan writing (or, at least, a Gallifreyan, writing) in almost every episode, from the Doctor filling the entire bedroom with crazy in "Deep Breath" to his drawing in the sand in "Mummy on the Orient Express." His face was supposed to be a plot point - why the Peter Capaldi model has twice appeared in the Whoniverse was apparently meant to be a thing. Now, being that this is Moffatt, and his "big twists" tend to fall flat (still a bit disappointed in the Silence, frankly), I'm not entirely optimistic, but I think they keep the show worth watching, even when the writing goes completely south in the name of pursuing some bit of ethical trivia.

"Mummy on the Orient Express," with the Doctor's act of potential self-sacrifice, did advance the morality plot a bit, rather than just hanging a limp episode on it. I've always liked episodes in which the Doctor appears corrupted, even to the audience (c.f. always-hero Fourth Doctor "The Invasion of Time," which he spends most of the first two acts screaming his head off), but less so when the Doctor is morally ambiguous as a given (c.f. tried-to-strangle-his-companion, abusive, shouty Sixth Doctor "Mindwarp," where the same trick just comes across as cree-eepy).

I don't want to tell Moffatt how to do his job, but it might be more interesting if the Doctor were trying to solve a puzzle that the audience had already solved. Then he wouldn't so much need redemption as convincing.

[Kheldarson]

Thanks for the explanation, Kheldarson!

While I am of course familiar with the existence of this character and the piece of work, do you really think I've read any of the books or seen any of the movies? After all, I'm over the age of 12. And I have a scrotum.

It was the most mainstream and current example I could think of. Unless you're familiar with Elminster? :P

[Jester]

Thanks for the explanation, Kheldarson!

Like Bella Swan from Twilight.

While I am of course familiar with the existence of this character and the piece of work, do you really think I've read any of the books or seen any of the movies? After all, I'm over the age of 12. And I have a scrotum.

I really can't stand any of Moff's female characters, and that includes Amy.

Hey! Them's fighting words!

[Gizmo]

I second the Clara what the hell..... Anything for an adventure - or a paycheck....

I did notice a large amount of throwback lines in this episode which could have helped a LOT to get people on board with the season.... and yet they were totally lackluster and meh.

Frank Skinner was probably the best bit out of the whole episode.... wish he HAD taken the doctors request to join him on board!

[KatherineB]

After seeing this last episode, the biggest problem for me this season has been the 'villains' - not one of them has been truly villainous. I think this is reflected in the fact that, for the first time since the reboot, we haven't had a single two-parter, and I'm sure it's because none of the villains could drag the drama over two episodes. The one exception might have been the Skovox Blitzer in Caretaker, but we were too busy watching the Doctor and Danny snipe at each other to see it. Presumably this is leading to some huge denouement with Missy and Heaven, but for now I'd like a villain who didn't repent of their actions in the end and turn out to be a damp squib. That way we might get a genuinely scary episode, rather than sitting there wondering "So what's going to be this guy's excuse for his actions?"Booooring!

[Kheldarson]

Tonight's episode... I just....just.....

*twitch*

CLARA WHAT THE HELL?!

[KatherineB]

River Song was the worst Mary Sue of them all.

Agreed! I really can't stand any of Moff's female characters, and that includes Amy. Sally Sparrow was the only one I find tolerable, with Nancy second.

[Kheldarson]

1. What's a Mary Sue? I'm lost here.

A Mary Sue, and her corollary Gary Stu, is a character who's impossibly perfect. She's more powerful than most, if not all, of the mains, everyone loves her, and the story focuses solely on her typically. She's also usually an author insert.

You usually see her in fanfic, but there are cases in original works. Like Bella Swan from Twilight.

[Jester]

River Song was the worst Mary Sue of them all.

Two questions:

1. What's a Mary Sue? I'm lost here.

2. What do you have against River Song? Just wondering....not trying to get ER contentious or anything.

My thoughts on Clara, especially recently: Oswin was better.

Agreed!