Human Pinata, or How to Be a "Man."

[jb17kx]

In hindsight my comments before may have been somewhat lacking in empathy. Naturally I will see things very differently to somebody who knew both BB and TD, but I perhaps did not account properly for that while composing my post.

I fully understand the view you take on the matter, Jester. BB is cretin, a scumbag, and his actions were vile and caused a woman to seek death at her own hand.

Had I known TD, then, from rereading this thread as a whole, I would probably be joining the queue of outraged and armed CSers outside his residence.

To those who took my post to be a chastisement or to condone BB's actions, I apologise.

[PepperElf]

I wish more people in bad relationships would get counseling. I am sure there's *nothing* they've never heard before.

One gal I knew last year had a similar situation...not sure where she is now because I left the country. At the time her husband was out of the country on work, so she had every chance to seek counseling, therapy, legal help... She chose not to do it because "he doesn't think we need it" and chose to complain to friends & ask tarot cards instead. She even came up with justification for him breaking into her phone bill to see who she was calling*...

After reading your TD thread it makes me sad... because I think this girl will end up in a similar situation if she doesn't seek help. And ... as I said before, I don't think she will.

*I didn't know it at the time... but he called me too. The number came up as unknown because it was overseas & he basically opened the call with "Who is this?" If I'd known then... I'd have been pretty livid.


but for bb... if the law doesn't get him... we know very well there's a level in Dante's imagination just waiting for him.


Edit: volunteer work for a woman's shelter sounds like a good idea. Just be sure they accept help from both genders since it's obvious that both men and women wish to do something in Tiny Dancer's memory.

[Seshat]

That's a damn shame.

I have a vague suggestion for something that those of you who knew her might want to do: have a day every year that you all pitch in and do some volunteer work in her memory.

Everyone contributes to a 'pizza-and-beer' fund, food is bought that may or may not be pizza and beer (be sure to cater to the no-alcohol types too), and you all go through and - oh, spring-clean the local animal shelter. Spring-clean a women's shelter. Build something for a shelter. Do some garden work for them. De-rubbish a park, stream or beach, or do a tree-planting, or - whatever needs doing in your local community that feels right to you all to do.

Anything that requires willing muscle and makes something good happen. Disabled friends can coordinate, do relevant paperwork, handle the catering, or whatever is within their abilities.

It's just a thought, but it might be a nice annual event for your circle-of-friends, as well as being a memorial TD's friends and family would feel good about.

[Jester]

Okay, point taken. But as the only witness to what actually happened is BB himself, none of that could be proven.

[Broomjockey]

As for laws on the books, reckless endangerment or promoting a suicide have both been used in similar cases. Then there's also civil suits.

[Jester]

it is unfortunate and disgusting that the "justice" system failed.

I don't know that it failed, per se. I mean, if the evidence showed that she did, in fact, take her own life, they can't really arrest him or charge him with anything. The fact is there is no law on the books that can punish BB for contributing to her demise in the way he did. And I don't think that there should be, necessarily. It would be a very slippery slope. The one thing he COULD have been punished for, abusing her, he was not, mainly because of TD and her walking away from it and going back to him. It's all very sad, all very tragic, and all very true.

Please, folks: use this tragic tale as I have been using it: as a lesson to those you care about, your children, nephews, nieces, and other young people (and maybe not even so young) who may not recognize this kind of behavior for what it really is. Don't let one of them become a statistic.

[Rahmota]

Jester: A good Irish style Wake, Elven Celebration of Life memories is a very good idea. Weep not for the ending but laugh at the memories of the journey. And drink til the pain is numb.

I am glad her family is able to know about BB and what sort of scum he is.

Sadly, you are wrong. His kind ISN'T always punished. All too often, they get away with this kind of stuff. I'd like to believe that that was not true, but if you pay attention to what happens in life, you'll see that it isn't the way things work. Sad and tragic? Sure. Welcome to real life. Hopefully, though, in this case it won't be the case, and he will be punished. One way or another.

Maybe not punished by us. Maybe not punished anytime soon or in a direct way. The universe moves in its own time its own methods. it is unfortunate and disgusting that the "justice" system failed. But there will be a time when BB receives his payment for the evil he has done.

I am actually using this as an important lesson for all my nieces to learn from. My eldest niece actually knew and worked with TD, so it is a very harsh lesson for her. I do hope they learn from it. I really do. Because while I did everything I think I could have done for TD, had it been any one of my nieces, trust me when I say I would have done more. A guy lays a hand on one of my nieces, he'll be lucky if all that happens is he loses that hand. I've said it before, and I'll say it again....you don't fuck with Jester, you don't fuck with Jester's friends, but you sure as HELL don't fuck with Jester's nieces!

Family takes care of family. I will wholeheartedly agree. Someone harms my daughter or one in my care they will wish for death. My life for them. i hope they do listen and learn and care.

Good days to you Jester. May your friend find the peace she deserved.

[Jester]

Much to report today.

First of all, I was very hungover today, as I went out and got a good ole drunk on last night. It helped somewhat.

But with that hangover going full blast today, as I was lounging around my place, imagine my surprise when one of my coworkers called to tell me that TD's parents and sister were at The Bar! I got their phone number, and called them a bit later (after I had woken up more fully and showered and all) and met up with them before I had to go to work.

Last night, while I was out getting soused, they were meeting with BB, and he pretty much pulled the wool over their eyes, as he played the dutiful and grieving boyfriend role to a T. That is....until they started talking to OTHER people today, such as my coworkers and managers and me and others. They started to wonder about things actually last night when they were in a bar with BB talking and more than one person pulled them aside to warn them what a piece of crap he was.

I added to that picture, but I told them "Don't believe me or other people. Go to the police and look at the reports of when he beat her, and look at the photos. That will tell you all you need to know." They are going to try to access those tomorrow. Today they got all of TD's stuff from BB's house, and also picked up her ashes from the funeral home. Her parents will be taking them back home to Chicago with them.

Sadly, the coroner and police seem to have ruled TD's death a suicide. Which means it apparently was. Because while BB is very adept at acting like something he isn't, he really isn't all that bright, and I have trouble believing that he's smarter than a trained medical examiner. But TD's family agrees with me that, whosever hand it was, it was still BB's fault, and that they wouldn't shed a tear if someone removed him from the planet, as the majority of people feel should happen. They were playing nice with him today, not letting him know what they had found out, because they wanted to make sure they got all of her stuff from his place first.

They are really nice people, I should add, and though none of the family saw it, all of us saw an very uncanny resemblance to TD in her sister's face, especially the eyes. It was almost unsettling.

In other news, my friend Frank and I are going to get together tomorrow and start planning TD's memorial, or as I prefer to think of it, a celebration of her life. We may make it a fundraiser for the ASPCA* as well, as TD loved animals and her family is asking people to donate to the ASPCA in lieu of flowers. If any of y'all want to donate to the ASPCA in TD's name, feel free to contact me privately, though I don't expect anyone here to do so as you didn't actually know her. Your support has been more than I could have expected already, to be honest. I am also going to try to get a local advocate for battered women involved as a speaker or some such....we are still hammering out the details. And we are going to invite anyone and everyone....except one person. I think we all know who THAT is.

A lot of people who knew her are still in shock, and I am hoping that something like this celebration will be a good way for us all to say our goodbyes to TD, and not whitewash her (she was FAR from perfect, and could be a real pain in the ass, among other things), but remember her how she was, both good and bad. And, just like almost everything else in Key West, it will be an excuse to drink....something TD would have relished greatly.

More details as this all develops. If anyone has any ideas for this celebration, feel free to contact me.

*For those who don't know or don't live in the U.S., the ASPCA is the American Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals. They do great work, and I strongly urge everyone to support them whenever they can, not because of TD, but because it is a great way to help out animals.

[Amethyst Hunter]

Don't listen to "I'm sorry, I'll never do it again". ONCE IS TOO MANY TIMES ALREADY.

It won't change. It won't get better. It can only end in horrible, brutal tragedy. Get. Out. NOW.

Agreed. My mom told me once, years ago, "NEVER let a man hit you even just once, because then he'll think he can do it forever."

Of course, it helps that I'm naturally a stubborn/ornery type and thus more wary of falling into such a trap, but even so, I'm glad my mom said that to me, because it's one of the few things that's stuck long-term in my memory.

Violence against any person, regardless of reason, is to be abhorred and I believe that we dishonour TD's memory as a sweet and gentle person by planning the drawn-out death of BB - as much as he may deserve it.

BB deserves any violence coming to him, whereas TD did not. This doesn't dishonor TD. Allowing an evil fucker like BB to roam free without any repercussions for his actions.....THAT dishonors TD's memory far more, if you ask me.

Have to agree with Jester on that. I can agree that violence is something to be avoided whenever possible; however, there are just times where the shit needs to be thrown down, if only to protect future victims from spoogeberries like BB.

Speaking only for myself, if someone messed with any of my loved ones, they would have to clean up the resulting mess with a REALLY big sponge and a pool of bleachwater, and pry the blunt object from my hand with that Jaws of Life thingy they use to cut people out of car wrecks. And this is coming from a barely-5-foot, overweight, out-of-shape and combat-inexperienced person.

I have a temper, and I don't take kindly to my family and friends being messed with either.

[Jester]

I wish there was something that could take your pain away.

Drop an anvil on BB's head? Or a piano? Or any other overused cartoon imagery?

I wish life was fair.

It isn't. No use pretending. But sometimes it can be balanced.

[Dips]

ReformedWaitress and Jester,

I'm sorry I missed this thread when it started. There's no comfort for losing someone you've tried in vain to save.

I hope you find some comfort in knowing you did the best you could for TD. Sometimes you might have doubts you did your best. Doubts are normal, but don't believe them. You really did your best. And, if there is an afterlife, TD knows that now.

I know you're both going through some other very tough things in your lives right now. And now this. I'm so sorry. I wish there were something that could take your pain away. I wish life were fair.

I'm sorry.

[Jester]

WARNING for victims:
If you are being abused, DON'T TAKE THIS POST AS A REASON TO STAY. Get out, get to a safe distance, stay at that safe distance.

Yes. Just because some people change, don't think that your abuser will. While there are those that do, it is a very very VERY small fraction. And odds are very against your abuser being among them. If you are being abused, you must assume that your abuser will not change. Because odds are overwhelming that he won't.

_IF_ BB is the killer, violence isn't justified. Just a swift and certain death.

I would like to respectfully disagree. I think any and all violence against BB is thoroughly justified and justifiable. But I understand that not all people will agree with me on this one.

One more thing: you said "IF BB is the killer...."

Well, he is. Whether she died by her own hand or his, he killed her. Period. He is responsible for her death. Whether directly or indirectly, he caused her death. And pretty much everyone down here familiar with the situation agrees with that premise.

There is no if. He killed her.

[marasbaras]

_IF_ BB is the killer, violence isn't justified. Just a swift and certain death.

[Seshat]

Since I doubt that most abusers would give two diddly shits about changing,

Most don't, that's true. But some do. Usually the ones willing to change are the ones who are suffering in some way and the abuse is a symptom: in those cases, clearing the main problem up does a great deal towards fixing the abuse. But they still need help to change the behaviour patterns they developed while they were suffering, and which are now harming their lives.

Most commonly, in my limited experience of abusers-willing-to-change, the core problem is that they themselves were abused. In those cases, they need to separate themselves from their abusers and they need to learn how to make healthy relationships - while unlearning most of what they know about relationships.
Other causes can be psychiatric illness, or physical illness that has psychiatric side-effects. An abuser who 'just can't help it' should get a thorough physical and psychiatric assessment. Once their illness is treated, they'll need help to get rid of the behaviours they'd developed that were adaptations to the illness, and to learn how to cope better with any aspects of the illness which can't be completely cured.

A happy story: I know a man who suffered childhood abuse, and had all the behaviour patterns and problems common to such cases. He recovered, and raised a family, and was a generally good man with a basically happy life. It can be done: it should be done with professional help.

Be aware that it might well take months, years or even decades before you're 'safe'. However, your quality of life will improve within weeks.



WARNING for victims:
If you are being abused, DON'T TAKE THIS POST AS A REASON TO STAY. Get out, get to a safe distance, stay at that safe distance. Let other people be the ones to help your ex: you and your ex will both have behaviour patterns that will trigger the abuse pattern.
That's right: you could make it HARDER for him (or her) to change.

Only go back if BOTH his counsellor AND your counsellor believe it to be safe and helpful to do so, and ONLY once YOU have recovered from the abuse as well.

It will probably take years for you both to recover. Not days, weeks or months. Years, and possibly decades. Discuss with your counsellor whether it's healthy for you to wait those years: it probably isn't. Not for either side.

There will be someone else for you. There will be someone else for your ex. Give your ex the space he/she needs to recover. And give yourself that space too.

I honestly and sincerely believe that BB deserves to have the most horrible, painful, evil, brutal things done to him, for a long, long time. Does this sound vindictive? Well, news flash: I am VERY vindictive. I hope this bastard suffers a slow and excrutiatingly painful death. I PRAY for it.

You don't torture a dog with rabies. You put it to death as quickly, mercifully, and safely as you can.

If BB is one of those people born without empathy for others, born without a conscience, and unable or unwilling to strive to develop one, then nothing you can do will teach him any better. He'll never understand, never get it. Lock him up or put him to death (let's leave THAT debate for Fratching).

If he is capable of empathy, if he does have a conscience, then to cure him you need to appeal to that conscience. Need to somehow get him to understand what he did. I know curing him is probably not what you want right now: but if it were me, part of me would be wanting to make that #$&*^%#$@ understand what he did, make him feel it. I suspect that's part of what you're feeling.
Tormenting another person usually just makes them even more angry, rather than more compassionate.

On top of all of that, tormenting another person does something to the person doing it. Makes them somehow colder, changes who they are. I don't imagine TD would want to have her friends become colder and have them hurt inside like that.

Yes, I think BB should be put on trial, punished, and - if he's one of those who can't or won't ever understand what he did - stay separated from mainstream society for life. No, I don't think him suffering torments will do anyone any good.

But a small part of me wants him to get a chronic, disabling, painful illness.

[Jester]

If they dont' prosecute this as a homicide, I am never going to stop throwing up.

And not only that, but they're watching TV, she walks out of the room and is gone for, what, however long it takes her to do the deed before he gets worried and comes looking for her?

Well, they may not have the evidence to prosecute this as a homicide. To their credit, they seem to be treating this VERY seriously, and are looking at every angle. They know what BB is, and he is the kind of person they despise and want to put away. Hopefully the evidence will allow them to do so.

As for your second point, according to what I have heard, BB said she was gone for 15 minutes before he wondered what was going on and went and found her. And yes, most people think that that is a pile of horseshit.

This may be my last post on this site, for what I am about to say will seem cold, heartless, and possibly put the other people on this site against me.

She did kill herself. Even if it is ruled a homicide, she did kill herself. She did that when she betrayed everything that was done for her and went back to him.

It is not cold or heartless. It is true. When she went back to him, she signed her own death certificate. Everyone knows it.

That, of course, does not absolve him of guilt. He is still responsible for her death. Even though she made a horrible choice that pretty much ended her life, that doesn't change the fact that, directly or indirectly, he killed her. Period, end of story.

As for BB he will be punished one way or another someday. His kind always do. It may not be someone with a badge but it will come to him.

Sadly, you are wrong. His kind ISN'T always punished. All too often, they get away with this kind of stuff. I'd like to believe that that was not true, but if you pay attention to what happens in life, you'll see that it isn't the way things work. Sad and tragic? Sure. Welcome to real life. Hopefully, though, in this case it won't be the case, and he will be punished. One way or another.

Take care of your neice.

I am actually using this as an important lesson for all my nieces to learn from. My eldest niece actually knew and worked with TD, so it is a very harsh lesson for her. I do hope they learn from it. I really do. Because while I did everything I think I could have done for TD, had it been any one of my nieces, trust me when I say I would have done more. A guy lays a hand on one of my nieces, he'll be lucky if all that happens is he loses that hand. I've said it before, and I'll say it again....you don't fuck with Jester, you don't fuck with Jester's friends, but you sure as HELL don't fuck with Jester's nieces!

And to all who read this, who recognise themselves in either role in this drama: ensure TD didn't die for nothing. Take her death as a warning, and seek help. Now. Today.

Please. If you see any parallels here to your own life, this should be a wakeup call for you to take different steps then were taken in this tragedy. Since I doubt that most abusers would give two diddly shits about changing, I am imploring you ladies with every ounce of my being to use this tragedy as an example of what not to do, and if you find yourself in a relationship like this, remember: he won't change. It won't change. It won't get better. It can only end in horrible, brutal tragedy. Get. Out. NOW.

I feel obligated, though, to point out that posting threats of violence against BB is but a hair's breadth from condoning the very violence we despise BB for. Violence against any person, regardless of reason, is to be abhorred and I believe that we dishonour TD's memory as a sweet and gentle person by planning the drawn-out death of BB - as much as he may deserve it.

I would like to respectfully disagree.

BB deserves any violence coming to him, whereas TD did not. BB abused a sweet person half his size. TD did no such thing.

If someone takes it upon themselves to remove BB from the planet, very few people will shed a tear over him, and I kind of doubt the cops would mind all that much either.

This doesn't dishonor TD. Allowing an evil fucker like BB to roam free without any repercussions for his actions.....THAT dishonors TD's memory far more, if you ask me.

I honestly and sincerely believe that BB deserves to have the most horrible, painful, evil, brutal things done to him, for a long, long time. Does this sound vindictive? Well, news flash: I am VERY vindictive. I hope this bastard suffers a slow and excrutiatingly painful death. I PRAY for it.

I understand your viewpoint. I do. I just don't agree with it. I hope you can understand that.

In a minor update, at the request of her parents, TD will be cremated. I have no other news on this whole thing.

Other than to say that this song has never meant so much to me.

"A friend of a friend....a friend to the end....that's the kind of girl she was...."